EVENT NARAM-63

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Exactimator said:
Dave F., Why are you pushing so hard for NRC competition? People don't seem to be very interested.
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I'm not really "pushing for NRC competition" ( I am "settling for NRC competiton", since the Pink Book was done away with ). So, I am pushing for NAR Competiton, since the NAR's "roots" are in Competition ( NARAM 1 was in 1959 ). HPR was added in, decades later.

Originally, the NAR "fought tooth & nail" to prevent HPR from coming to be. The advent of Tripoli gave the NAR no choice but to embrace HPR or risk the possible end of the organization. Nowadays, thing are 180 degrees shifted, with the NAR "pushing HPR" and shoving NAR Competition off into a corner. The NAR has "forgotten where it came from".

Note, I am not "anti-HPR", in any way ( I'm Level 2 ), and by looking at my NAR & TRA numbers below, you can see that I am not a "newbie".
 

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Two things:

I miss Naramlive. I realize it was an uncompensated labor of love. Thanks Chris Taylor. http://naramlive.com/

I find it interesting that my understanding of Stine's vision for the NAR may exist in 2022 in some European countries only. Discuss. :)
 
samb said:
I find it interesting that my understanding of Stine's vision for the NAR may exist in 2022 in some European countries only. Discuss. :)
Click to expand...

First, what is your understanding of Stine's vision for the NAR? I don't know what that is, so to form a basis for discussion please elaborate.
 
shockie said:
In all the east European countries and Russia during the cold War each countries NAC was sponsored by the government.
They decided that fai spacemodeling would be a good technical hobby for their young people. Because it required knowledge of math and science. So it was considered a STEM activity long before STEM even existed.
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It still befuddles me that the NAR BoD still thinks they are administrating the greatest youth STEM activity. It should just be rebranded as excuse to get kids outside chasing rockets. Back in the sixties and seventies it was. You needed the math to do CP calculations, altitude data Reduction, etc. Putting on a contest took a village; you had to develop organizational skills, team building, and technical expertise. With NRC you just need two warm bodies. Most technical questions are answered by "plug it into OpenRoc."
 
Alan15578 said:
It still befuddles me that the NAR BoD still thinks they are administrating the greatest youth STEM activity. It should just be rebranded as excuse to get kids outside chasing rockets. Back in the sixties and seventies it was. You needed the math to do CP calculations, altitude data Reduction, etc. Putting on a contest took a village; you had to develop organizational skills, team building, and technical expertise. With NRC you just need two warm bodies. Most technical questions are answered by "plug it into OpenRoc."
Click to expand...
This post befuddles me. Its like saying, gee I miss having to gap points and screw with manual chokes. And damn drum brakes were great! And back in the day we LIKED headons collisions where there were no stupid computers to deploy airbags!

OpenRoc is a gateway to design. CAD. STEM. Computer science even. And understand HOW different sizes and weights affect things. You think "Gee I miss making a rocket only to have it pinwheel and crash into the ground" with not IDEA what was the issue was good thing? Get real. And GET OFF MY LAWN!!! :)
 
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astronwolf said:
First, what is your understanding of Stine's vision for the NAR? I don't know what that is, so to form a basis for discussion please elaborate.
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Certainly. The history of the hobby has always interested me so I have tried to find and read everything available. I wasn't there and I never met Harry Stine. That said I think he was a visionary, an organizer, a salesman, and a lover of half inch diameter motors. He wanted NAR to bring order to the "chaos". He wanted NAR to be the gatekeeper of hobby in the USA with clubs every town organizing, mentoring and controlling the party. He wanted organized competition from the local to the international level. I don't think he would like a NAR without competition. That's my understanding. :)
 
Ez2cDave said:
I'm not really "pushing for NRC competition" ( I am "settling for NRC competiton", since the Pink Book was done away with ). So, I am pushing for NAR Competiton, since the NAR's "roots" are in Competition ( NARAM 1 was in 1959 ). HPR was added in, decades later.

Originally, the NAR "fought tooth & nail" to prevent HPR from coming to be. The advent of Tripoli gave the NAR no choice but to embrace HPR or risk the possible end of the organization. Nowadays, thing are 180 degrees shifted, with the NAR "pushing HPR" and shoving NAR Competition off into a corner. The NAR has "forgotten where it came from".

Note, I am not "anti-HPR", in any way ( I'm Level 2 ), and by looking at my NAR & TRA numbers below, you can see that I am not a "newbie".
Click to expand...

NAR competition is alive and well in TARC.
 
Ez2cDave said:
I'm not really "pushing for NRC competition" ( I am "settling for NRC competiton", since the Pink Book was done away with ). So, I am pushing for NAR Competiton, since the NAR's "roots" are in Competition ( NARAM 1 was in 1959 ). HPR was added in, decades later.

Originally, the NAR "fought tooth & nail" to prevent HPR from coming to be. The advent of Tripoli gave the NAR no choice but to embrace HPR or risk the possible end of the organization. Nowadays, thing are 180 degrees shifted, with the NAR "pushing HPR" and shoving NAR Competition off into a corner. The NAR has "forgotten where it came from".

Note, I am not "anti-HPR", in any way ( I'm Level 2 ), and by looking at my NAR & TRA numbers below, you can see that I am not a "newbie".
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand... you want competition for history sake?
 
Cnorm said:
NAR competition is alive and well in TARC.
Click to expand...

TARC is not NAR Competition . . . Adult NAR Members can't compete in TARC !

Exactimator said:
I'm not sure I understand... you want competition for history sake?
Click to expand...
Let me help you understand . . .
I want NAR Competition to continue to "make history", not to "become history".

Personally, I do not like NRC, because it does away with "head to head" competition.
Unlike "traditional NAR Competition", there are no prizes, trophies, or awards, either.
NRC has little "value", but to "allow" the top flyers to try to become "Champ" at NARAM.
The rest have "nothing to show" for their efforts, unlike "traditional NAR Competition".
Since NRC is all there is, Members have to "settle for it", since the Pink Book is gone.

Dave F.
 
astronwolf said:
Got news for you - TARC is not NAR Competition. It is an event organized by the Aerospace Industries Association of America. NAR volunteers supply manpower to help administer and run the event.
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I see your point. I put this and the other student focused competitions in a category that are attracting young flyers to the hobby. And to potentially staying around as NAR and/or Tripoli flyers. Yes, I know, not pertinent to the idea of resuscitating classic (vintage, historical, olde tyme) NAR competition.

https://www.nar.org/team-america/

"The American Rocketry Challenge (TARC) is an aerospace design and engineering event for teams of US secondary school students (6th through 12th grades) run by the NAR and the Aerospace Industries Association (AIA)..."
 
samb said:
Certainly. The history of the hobby has always interested me so I have tried to find and read everything available. I wasn't there and I never met Harry Stine. That said I think he was a visionary, an organizer, a salesman, and a lover of half inch diameter motors. He wanted NAR to bring order to the "chaos". He wanted NAR to be the gatekeeper of hobby in the USA with clubs every town organizing, mentoring and controlling the party. He wanted organized competition from the local to the international level. I don't think he would like a NAR without competition. That's my understanding. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks Samb. You know of course that we're just speculating about what GHS would've liked and disliked. None of this carries any great, momentous consequence upon which hinges the very future of rocketry. It's just a chat. Just a PSA to those who roll their eyes and let out exasperated groans that someone may be discussing a topic and expressing opinions that they don't like.

I agree that GHS probably would not want a NAR without competition. I disgree that "Stine's vision for the NAR," as you define it, exists only in some European countries at this time. I'm not quite sure what you are saying about his desire for the NAR "to be the gatekeeper of the hobby." The gate was left open, and the cows are in the corn, for sure. If he were alive today, GHS would be greatly pleased by developments in rocketry competition outside of the NAR, like TARC and FAI. These activities are happening in the USA. And Stine's vision is probably a little broader than just flying competition. I'd say that wherever people are flying rockets, even if it's just for fun, then "Stine's vision" is alive and well.

A NAR without competition does not exist today. NRC not going away just yet. GHS would recognize the decline in popularity of NAR competition just like anyone else. It's an obvious fact. I'd like to believe that he would not begrudge the current NAR leadership for making some adjustments to NARAM and NSL in response to current trends and member preferences. But NAR Comp still exists 2022. And it will still be there in 2023 and beyond. Thus, I believe that your statement that "Stine's vision," meaning a NAR with competition rocketry, only exists in some European countries today is untrue.
 
samb said:
I see your point. I put this and the other student focused competitions in a category that are attracting young flyers to the hobby. And to potentially staying around as NAR and/or Tripoli flyers. Yes, I know, not pertinent to the idea of resuscitating classic (vintage, historical, olde tyme) NAR competition.
Click to expand...
I am neutral to the idea of "resuscitating" classic NAR competition, and believe that any efforts to do so would be a waste of time and effort. One can do more to promote any activity just by going out there and doing it. The NRC has made it stupid easy for anyone to participate in NAR competition at any level of commitment that pleases you. You either participate, or you do not participate. Either is fine with me.
 
Alan15578 said:
It still befuddles me that the NAR BoD still thinks they are administrating the greatest youth STEM activity. It should just be rebranded as excuse to get kids outside chasing rockets. Back in the sixties and seventies it was. You needed the math to do CP calculations, altitude data Reduction, etc. Putting on a contest took a village; you had to develop organizational skills, team building, and technical expertise. With NRC you just need two warm bodies. Most technical questions are answered by "plug it into OpenRoc."
Click to expand...
You go to college and take four years of Calculus, statics, dynamics, etc., and when you get into the real world you never actually do any of that math. You're using software tools that do the calculations for you. What's important is that you understand the underlying principles behind the tools... if you do not, then your simulations will probably be garbage. I can tell you that organizational skills and disciplines are generally not taught in STEM curricula... I have a son that graduated with a BS in engineering a bit over a year ago, and all of the soft skills that he developed were from the excellent internship that he managed to wrangle (which turned into a very well paying job).
 
I still say TARC has supplanted NAR competition, unintentionally.

Why is TARC popular? You can win stuff that the participants consider valuable to them.

It seems nobody wants to consider that possibly.

So since the NAR is flush with cash. Why not invest some of it in promoting FAI Soacemodeling competition?
Use the TARC model for FAI competition.
 
aerostadt said:
Student teams are quickly organized with the hope of winning money for college.
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The students that I have worked with in the past have considered the money a long shot, and well down the list of motivators. First on the list is the fact that they get to do something cool with their friends, and most of them recognize that it will give them an interesting story for college applications and interviews.

Even the team I mentored that won the US and International versions of TARC was after the experience, not the cash. I will admit, however, that they DID turn the experience into a full-ride scholarship for each and every team member, although that money came from the universities they attended, and not AIA or the NAR.
 
What is so disappointing to me over the years is to watch fools that grew up in the 60 and 70s when I did, fail to adapt or learn any modern technology. All they do is bitch cry and moan about it and the kids that learn it. Fools that think we were better off with rotary phones. Idiots who think the internet does nothing to educate.

But then almost EVERYONE who was educated in from the late 80s to now, is science illiterate. (Notice I said ALMOST). which is why the US is a country in steep decline.... But that is for another thread. Haters of science.
 
gdjsky01 said:
What is so disappointing to me over the years is to watch fools that grew up in the 60 and 70s when I did, fail to adapt or learn any modern technology. All they do is bitch cry and moan about it and the kids that learn it. Fools that think we were better off with rotary phones. Idiots who think the internet does nothing to educate.

But then almost EVERYONE who was educated in from the late 80s to now, is science illiterate. (Notice I said ALMOST). which is why the US is a country in steep decline.... But that is for another thread. Haters of science.
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It's always helpful when you call your fellow rocketeers idiots.

The USA is in steep decline, not because people are science challenged, but because we've raised a generation or two of woke progressive socialist idiots, indoctrinated and social engineered by woke progressive socialist teacher unions.

At least in the 60' and 70's when I went to school, before there was a Federal Dept of Re-education, we were taught civics, abd in science we knew the difference between being a male or female.

Imagine how enlightened we would be today if we had the internet since 1970?.

oh we sorta did, but it was called arpanet and only select Universities had access to it.

Can anybody imagine what effect 50+ years of Tiktok,Facebook,Instagram,etc does to a child's mind?

All new shiny objects aren't Good as all old things aren't bad.

But as you said, we'll save that discussion for another thread
 
shockie said:
Why is TARC popular? You can win stuff that the participants consider valuable to them.
Click to expand...
That may motivate some contestants. The biggest reason may be that it is school based extracurricular activity. You can put that on your resume and universities and potential employers can verify participation through your school. NAR contest participation is non curricular. You could put on your resume that you won the NRC B division National Championship. In an interview they might ask what is that, and how many people did you beat. You would reply, I'm not sure, maybe three other people.

The school based TARC filters out all the old farts. Youth want to interact with their peers. Nothing is more off-putting to youths than an environment populated and dominated by old folks. They may welcome learning from upperclassmen and college students, but definitely not old grey beards. I'll never forget when I attended NIRCON at a High School. I arrived a few minutes late, dashed in to find the room and verify that there was a rocket conference, then returned to my car to bring in a load of rockets for display. At the main doors I met a mother and two youths who had come for NIRCON and were just leaving. I assured them that there was a rocketry conference inside and that they would be most welcome. They had seen the room full of mostly old folks and I could not persuade then to return. Adult NAR members can certainly participate as "mentors", but they are mostly welcomed as enablers and resource providers.
 
Alan15578 said:
Adult NAR members can certainly participate as "mentors", but they are mostly welcomed as enablers and resource providers.
Click to expand...
In the past, I have mentored several TARC teams. There is a rule that says a Mentor can't physically build / work on a Team's rocket, nor design it for them.

The way I approached that situation was to have an in-depth, "initial meeting" with the Teams, during which they were taught how to design and build competition rockets, specifically, Egglofters.

I showed them design drawings and brought models that I had designed and built. At no time, were any materials pertaining to their TARC rocket ever present in the room. The meeting was "educational / instructional" and they had "hands-on" practice with designing egglofters. We discussed interchangeable Drag Plates ( to reduce altitude ), Parachute sizing / spill holes / types of parachutes ( to avoid thermals ), and many other things. Consistency, consistency, consistency !

BTW - The rules do not limit what a Mentor can show, teach, or discuss with the Teacher(s), most of whom have no clue, whatsoever . . . If the Students "overhear" this exchange, oh well, since they are not being directly addressed !

They learned is that it is not necessary to build a clunky, overweight rocket for TARC, which costs more to fly and requires larger, heavier recovery systems =, etc, etc, etc.

Did they win ? No . . . Did they go to the Finals ? Yes.

One thing about TARC flight results that can never be overcome are the "performance variables" of the motors being flown. No matter how "precise" you are, it still boils down to "luck".

Dave F.
 
astronwolf said:
Thanks Samb. You know of course that we're just speculating about what GHS would've liked and disliked. None of this carries any great, momentous consequence upon which hinges the very future of rocketry. It's just a chat. Just a PSA to those who roll their eyes and let out exasperated groans that someone may be discussing a topic and expressing opinions that they don't like.

I agree that GHS probably would not want a NAR without competition. I disgree that "Stine's vision for the NAR," as you define it, exists only in some European countries at this time. I'm not quite sure what you are saying about his desire for the NAR "to be the gatekeeper of the hobby." The gate was left open, and the cows are in the corn, for sure. If he were alive today, GHS would be greatly pleased by developments in rocketry competition outside of the NAR, like TARC and FAI. These activities are happening in the USA. And Stine's vision is probably a little broader than just flying competition. I'd say that wherever people are flying rockets, even if it's just for fun, then "Stine's vision" is alive and well.

A NAR without competition does not exist today. NRC not going away just yet. GHS would recognize the decline in popularity of NAR competition just like anyone else. It's an obvious fact. I'd like to believe that he would not begrudge the current NAR leadership for making some adjustments to NARAM and NSL in response to current trends and member preferences. But NAR Comp still exists 2022. And it will still be there in 2023 and beyond. Thus, I believe that your statement that "Stine's vision," meaning a NAR with competition rocketry, only exists in some European countries today is untrue.
Click to expand...
Yes, certainly, pure speculation. I got the impression that he saw the NAR as almost a non-government regulatory body. It still astounds me that he had the fully realized idea of a national organization with a single "club" in Denver. A BIG thinker. And it seems he always wrote glowingly of the European's competitive and organizational efforts. Anyway I'm a big GHS fan and I thank him, the other founding fathers, and the current NAR and Tripoli leaders every time I go fly a rocket.
 
cerving said:
You go to college and take four years of Calculus, statics, dynamics, etc., and when you get into the real world you never actually do any of that math. You're using software tools that do the calculations for you. What's important is that you understand the underlying principles behind the tools... if you do not, then your simulations will probably be garbage. I can tell you that organizational skills and disciplines are generally not taught in STEM curricula... I have a son that graduated with a BS in engineering a bit over a year ago, and all of the soft skills that he developed were from the excellent internship that he managed to wrangle (which turned into a very well paying job).
Click to expand...
I could address the issues that you raised, but you are getting farther off the topic. I'll just say that if you asked, most professors they would tell you that the problem is not deciding what to incline in the curriculum or textbook, but what to leave out. Students should expect to fill in gaps with independent study or skills development.

I'm old, semi-retired, and working a recurring temp job from home over the internet. I have not kept up my rocketry skills up. For example, I have never assembled an electronic kit with surface mount components.

I do recognize times have changed, making rocketry more difficult and less popular. My first rocket club was Hawkeye Section #178 in Davenport, Iowa. I was President for all but the first two years, and I/we hosted a well attended regional, MAR, Mid American Regional, for three years. I initially funded my hobby with a very small paper route. Kids don't have paper routes any more. Our first and main launch field was Garfield Park, which was nice. I Googled it and it has changed substantially; It looks like someone took a cookie cutter and and fitted in as many fenced ball fields as they possibly could. Oh well, we are no longer using it. Our regionals were first held at the larger and wonderful Scott County Park, and then moved closer, to Seven Cities Sod Farm. Everywhere I look, parks and green spaces have been developed with splash pads and other features that render them useless as rocket launch fields. Even the youth have changed. Most are obsessed with computer games and smartphone apps. It is harder today to find youths with the right stuff, and even when I do, I think they might be better served by directing them to a robotics club or Maker space.

Nerc was intended to shore up a declining activity and in particular, keep NARAM going strong. Currently the NAR BoD is complaining that are few or no sections and contest directors willing to host a NARAM. It is really easy, you just look at the 5-10 largest regional meets and pick one. Dangle some seed money, words of encouragement, and gently twist some arms. Oh snap! Nerc has engineered large meets out of the picture and incentivized micro qualifying events. I'm not ready to throw Nerc under the bus just yet. It eliminates gerymandering arguments of event weighting factors, and gives more emphasis to winners of individual events. Still, I think Nerc has failed to meet it's objectives, and something needs to be done to right the ship.
 
Alan15578 said:
Oh snap! Nerc has engineered large meets out of the picture and incentivized micro qualifying events. I'm not ready to throw Nerc under the bus just yet.
Click to expand...
Nerc... LOL. How about NERF as in NAR comp has been nerfed? I'm still hosting NRC at all our sport launches. Got a whole three flights in last season. Maybe I'll even give it a try, though I have taken a break from all that. I am sort of like - FAI or NeRF? NeRF or FAI? The whole BOD-engineered LaCroix Gambit seems to have gone awry and people are like, but "it's been that ways for years." LOL. Whatever... I am waiting for the next "top-down" fix to come down on us.

Anyone reflect on how Pink Book revisions used to take years to happen? But now they come every year, and even that isn't fast enough so we now have "emergency" rules revisions to really speed it up. We can't tell what works anymore because change comes on top of change on top of more change. One year it is emergency sport scale, and the next year it is out. It's like the organization has had a panic attack, and no one has asked the patient to first, sit down and stop hyperventilating. And we wonder why it is all fubar. Maybe we should be giving the RCP process an hiatus and leave just it alone for a bit.
 
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