EVENT NARAM-63

[gdjsky01]

I can remember a time when NARAM didn’t have a sport range. Competition flying was the main concentration even at the Section level. And yes, I’m really old. Guess NARAM WON’t be the annual rocketry festival, eh.

And I can remember when we used points distributors, drum brakes, carburetors and chokes. None of which I ever want to go back to. The past is not the future (unless doomed to repeat it!)

The facts remain, way too much is made of NARAM for the 60 members that compete. A membership focused BOT would abolish NARAM and have quarterly NSLs. NARAM suits 60 people or so. Less than 1% of NAR members.

No, I not for this. I am simply pointing out competition is a dead horse and has been. It just has not lain over. Seriously tho. There is no reason to worry about NARAM and a sport range. Lets just have an LDRS or NSL at the same time somewhere else. All the 1/4A PD folks can have their 60 member cabal. I have to admit I LIKE gliders. They are a great challenge. But not, who can spend 3 days making a velum body tube on a mandrel that machined, cost a K550 reload?

I've never attended a NARAM. IIRC ROC (one of my clubs) did host one some time ago. Had there been no sport range on the lake bed, I'd have not gone. (Turns out I was not able to attend IIRC). Whereas SCRA's current field would allow for a NARAM and a G or < sport range (mostly <). But being a public park... and this being the 2020's... not likely. Beside all the BTCs would BCM if NARAM was hosted on the west coast.

As I write this it does seem like NARAM should be dropped as the moniker. Hold the national competition EVERY year in Muncie. Have a blast. IN in the Summer! Call it the NAR National Competition. NAR-NA-COMP. Move all the other traditional NARAM activities to the NSLs.

I can hear it now... NAR NAR NAR... NAH, NAH, NAH... hey hey hey... it a COMP!

 

[Initiator001]

Not meaning to break the train of thought here but has there been any NARAM-63 news yet?

 

[jrains]

Reading this thread is beyond painful. As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, Dave F has not been to a NARAM in 15+ years. I totally get it that he has his reasons, mainly money related, which are valid and I respect. That said, NARAMs in all likelihood will never have 150 or more contestants. There’s no soup starter or major potion here. If the membership and leadership support having a national contest that’s half that size or less, go for it.

Someone stole my point that NARAM never had a sport range until maybe 30 years ago. I’m fuzzy with the years here, so I could be off.

Last year I attended NARAM to just sport fly, so I get the concern. Having run a NARAM, I am familiar with challenges of equipping and staffing a sport range. Just pointing out that it takes work.

Final observation. I went to NSL 2022 and in my opinion, it was more a regional event compared to a national event like NARAM. It was a great event, with an amazing field. The takeaway for me was that I could have traveled to a closer launch in the Northeast with a comparable field, waiver, crowd and vendors. It reminded me of the first NARCONs I attended in Wisconsin and Minnesota where the only out of town folks were the NAR Board and me. When NARCON transitioned to ‘your travel agent recommends’ type event did attendance become truly national.

The point here is this. National events from a participation perspective are not always truly national. Adding a sport launch drives up weekend participation, but not all 5+ days.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Reading this thread is beyond painful. As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, Dave F has not been to a NARAM in 15+ years. I totally get it that he has his reasons, mainly money related, which are valid and I respect.

Jonathan,

NARAM 50 ( 2008 ) was my most recent NARAM, so it's been 14 years for me. As you said, my main obstacle to attending NARAM has always been money. I have been fortunate enough to be able to compete at 3 NARAM's ( 17, 19, & 50 ), so far. Thank you for the respectful way you discussed my situation.

Dave F.

 

[Alan15578]

Jonathan,

NARAM 50 ( 2008 ) was my most recent NARAM, so it's been 14 years for me. As you said, my main obstacle to attending NARAM has always been money. I have been fortunate enough to be able to compete at 3 NARAM's ( 17, 19, & 50 ), so far. Thank you for the respectful way you discussed my situation.

Dave F.

Hey, I resemble that remark. Although My first was 12, I have maybe 3 times as many, but my last may have been Huntsville. I did take two uncompensated days off work to spectate at the Medina, Ohio NARAM. I am off work now and I was looking forward to spectating a couple days this year. I took my car in for service and they wanted to replace a failing fuel injector, but had to order the part, My car still runs fine around town, but I don't want to risk driving down to central MO, until it is really fine. I had a bad breakdown experience once in central MO,

 

[astronwolf]

I see the inference as more significant than the announcement. The decision is not about taking the sport range away from NARAM. It's about taking NAR competition out of the NAR's premiere annual event. The sport flying is certainly not going away, and it looks like they'll have two national-level events for that moving forward. Intentionally or not, NAR competition is being released to do its own thing, with the small group of people who still do that sort of thing, at a smaller venue somewhere apart from the big annual show. Sport flying hasn't been banned. So who cares what the name of that event is? Go put all your energy and enthusiam into the big sport event.

I wish we could stop calling it "sport" rocketry, and just call it rocketry. The "sport" designation is so dated, and goes back to the days when it was important to signal, "not competition." Those days have darkened, and passed. Let it go. We all flew the G.

Having helped organize and run a NARAM (one that actually turned a profit) I view the decision with a sense of relief. Those few of us who still like NAR competition rocketry will be relieved to live in a world where the rest of the rocketry community has stopped trying to make our micro-hobby into something it isn't, and never was.

 

[astronwolf]

You can fly up to mid-range ‘H’ motors (about 240 N-sec/125 grams propellant) and 3.3 lb (1,500 gram) rockets without a waiver, if that’s a major issue.

But you still need to be located more than 1500-feet from an occupied structure.

 

[astronwolf]

It takes people willing to mentor others in how to fly contest events. Such mentoring is clearly present in TARC and HPR, but aside from Dan Wolf and Robert Zurek, I don't see others doing it.

Baloney. Every section who hosts an NRC event locally has that one guy who is conceivably mentoring newbies. But people with a perspective very skewed to the National level wouldn't see or acknowledge that.

 

[aerostadt]

Competition starts today.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Hopefully, the Town Hall Meeting will be recorded on video.

The BoT, from what I have been hearing, is going to face some tough questioning and have a lot of explaining to do.

A major concern is how the decision was made, without any previous discussion(s), motions, or votes were recorded in the BoT Meeting Minutes. Also, the matter was never openly presented to the Membership at Large for discussion or a vote, as required. These actions of the BoT are a serious matter, which needs to be thoroughly explained.

Dave F.

 

[shockie]

I'm going to make a radical proposal:

Can the current NAR NRC framework and replace it ALL with FAI Competition.

I'm not talking about flying the same old, same old core FAI events.

Sure we could concentrate or focus on the core, but we could also add a few different FAI events.

Nar competition events have lost their cache wuth today's modelers.

FAI competition events are the only competition style rocketry that is growing in the NAR.

Look at TARC competition. It has grown and grown down through the years.

It's very popular with exactly the type of young people we need to attract if the NAR is going to be here 10-20 years from now as all of us old-timers die off.

We could offer college scholarships and real gold/silver/bronze medals at a FAI National Championship at NARAM. Or at least gold plated.
The NAR could partner with other organizations like they do with TARC.

Food for thought.

 

[Ez2cDave]

It's very popular with exactly the type of young people we need to attract if the NAR is going to be here 10-20 years from now as all of us old-timers die off.

The NAR will continue to survive, likely as an HPR-only organization, in the future.

Dave F.

 

[shockie]

From attendance data found at the NAR website:

NSL 2019 149
NSL 2021 131
NSL 2022 69

NARAM 60 223
NARAM 61 174
NARAM 62 142
NARAM 63 170

Draw your own conclusions, but my take is that there's not a strong fixed relationship between attendance and activity (sport / competition). The site, the contest events, the distance people have to drive, etc. all figure into attendance at national events.

YMMV.

Excellent points

 

[shockie]

Has anybody considered the effect that TARC has had on the decline of NAR competition?

Has anybody noticed that as TARC participation has grown, along with other STEM type rocketry events SLI,etc) NAR competition rocketry has declined? Cause and effect? Or just a coincidence?

At their core, TARC and SLI are competition rocketry.
TARC more so than SLI attract exactly the age group of people that the NAR needs to attract not only for NAR competition to grow, but to ensure the very long term growth the NAR .

NRC should be scrapped. It was a bandaid over a serious wound that it couldn't heal.

The only type of NAR competition rocketry that is growing is FAI Spacemodeling.

Why? Because it has some financial support from the NAR .
Plus it is a STEM activity now too. They've taken the TARC competition event abd created a provisional FAI event called S2P which is pretty popular. S2P is basically TARC for individuals.
With FAI Competition you can actually win medals or their equivalents.

If the NAR would completely replace ALL the current NAR competition events with their FAI counterparts, add in some additional financial supports , it could grow FAI competition within the NAR.

What kind of financial supports? How about good old fashioned cash?
Play for pay? Say $100/50/25 for each place?
Or scholarship monies like TARC/SLI.
Gold plated, real silver and bronze medals. Plus you get to say your a national champ or world champ.

What I'm proposing here is to treat FAI Spacemodeling like we have treated TARC and SLI.

 

[Antares JS]

Some, possible, "actionable" consequences . . . ( escalating ).

(1) The Section is ineligible to receive Grant Money, until they comply.
(2) Responsible Section Members are ineligible to fly at NARAM or NSL, until compliant.
(3) Suspend responsible Section Member's HPR certifications, for non-compliance.
(4) Place Section on "probation", with a time-limit to comply.
(5) Cancel Section charter, unless they comply. ( inform landowner of loss of insurance )

Who would want to "fight" hosting NAR Competition, to risk all of that

Frankly, a "Competition Requirement" should have been in place, in Section charters, right from the initial formation of the NAR.

Dave F.

Who, exactly, is "fighting" hosting competition in the first place? Show me these NAR sections who are refusing to host competitions while their members clamor for it.

The decline of NAR competition is very obviously due to lack of interest from the general membership. Not to mention, it's a hobby. This is something that people do in their free time to have fun. Penalizing people by taking away their insurance (and most likely their launch field) for not enjoying a hobby the way you want them to enjoy it is completely insane.

If something like this would be implemented (not that I'm worried it will ever happen) it's much more likely that NAR sections would either merge with or become Tripoli prefectures. No one is going to "fight" hosting competitions; they will instead just turn to the organization that lets them enjoy the hobby the way they want to.

Full Disclosure: I am not a NAR member and have no skin in this game. I'm just on this thread looking for NARAM news.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Has anybody considered the effect that TARC has had on the decline of NAR competition?

Has anybody noticed that as TARC participation has grown, along with other STEM type rocketry events SLI,etc) NAR competition rocketry has declined? Cause and effect? Or just a coincidence?

At their core, TARC and SLI are competition rocketry.
TARC more so than SLI attract exactly the age group of people that the NAR needs to attract not only for NAR competition to grow, but to ensure the very long term growth the NAR .

NRC should be scrapped. It was a bandaid over a serious wound that it couldn't heal.

The only type of NAR competition rocketry that is growing is FAI Spacemodeling.

Why? Because it has some financial support from the NAR .
Plus it is a STEM activity now too. They've taken the TARC competition event abd created a provisional FAI event called S2P which is pretty popular. S2P is basically TARC for individuals.
With FAI Competition you can actually win medals or their equivalents.

If the NAR would completely replace ALL the current NAR competition events with their FAI counterparts, add in some additional financial supports , it could grow FAI competition within the NAR.

What kind of financial supports? How about good old fashioned cash?
Play for pay? Say $100/50/25 for each place?
Or scholarship monies like TARC/SLI.
Gold plated, real silver and bronze medals. Plus you get to say your a national champ or world champ.

What I'm proposing here is to treat FAI Spacemodeling like we have treated TARC and SLI.

TARC has NOTHING to do with NAR or FAI Competition. The TARC Competitors are competing for "financial reward".

What would TARC participation look like, if the kids only competed for "ribbons, plaques, & trophies", nothing "financial" ?

NRC, effectively, did away with "head to head" NAR competition. It is, basically, a national "postal contest", with nothing to show for your efforts. At NARAM, it is "head to head", but only the top "mail-in competitors" have a shot at winning a championship.

Basically, the whole system is a mess !

Dave F.

 

[Scott_650]

Really ?

https://www.nasa.gov/stem/studentlaunch/home/index.html
I see ZERO "model rockets" there, or any mention of the NAR.

https://www.ulalaunch.com/about/new...announces-k-12-student-rocket-launch-payloads
No "model rockets" or NAR here.

https://rocketcontest.org
No "NRC" competition in sight here, at all.

Dave F.

Exactly the point that I, samb and several others have been trying to make - three of the largest, fastest growing rocketry competitions in the US and zero direct connection to NAR competition events outside of the general aspect of payload lofting. NAR competition rocketry will probably have to look much different fairly quickly or there’s a real chance it could cease to be. I can’t imagine that, in absolute terms, competition flying uses up all that much of the NAR’s resources but it’s not hard to make the case that it uses a disproportionate amount considering the number of participants.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Who, exactly, is "fighting" hosting competition in the first place? Show me these NAR sections who are refusing to host competitions while their members clamor for it.

Here you go . . .

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/survey-for-all-nar-members-with-regards-to-nar-competition.165802

QUOTE :

"competition events are a waste of valuable flying time"

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/survey-for-all-nar-members-with-regards-to-nar-competition.165802/#post-2127700

END QUOTE :

Dave F

 

[Initiator001]

The NAR will continue to survive, likely as an HPR-only organization, in the future.

Dave F.

Nonsense.

The idea that the rise of HPR is the reason for the decline of NAR competition rocketry has no correlation.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Nonsense.

The idea that the rise of HPR is the reason for the decline of NAR competition rocketry has no correlation.

The only nonsense here was posted by you . . . I never said that HPR was the reason for the decline of NAR competition.

I said the NAR will continue to survive, likely as an HPR-only organization, in the future.

My reasoning behind that is that the current NAR Competitors, unless they are replaced by new NAR Competitors, will eventually die off and NAR Competition will die along with them.

Dave F.

 

[astronwolf]

Exactly the point that I, samb and several others have been trying to make - three of the largest, fastest growing rocketry competitions in the US and zero direct connection to NAR competition events outside of the general aspect of payload lofting.

Add that of the three fastest growing rocketry competitions, none of them are hobby-related. These kids and the teams are generally not hobbyists. They can be hobbyists. Some are. But that's not what's driving the numbers. School systems, adults, corporations, and money are whats driving the numbers. And free NAR memberships. So they're not doing it just for fun. They do have fun with these activities, but that's not what the motivation is.

The NAR is mostly a hobby organization. We do it just for fun. I think it's fun. And I can say audacious things like, "meh... it's just a hobby." Most of our membership doesn't believe that contest flying is fun. They just want to fly their rocket, and that's good enough. I guess that sucks for contest flying. Meh...

I don't share the conclusion that some people make that the success of the scholastic teams is a roadmap to saving NAR competition. IMHO creating some sort of "TARC for grownups" (for hobbyists) would be like the "New Coke" of rocketry.

Hey, there's always the AMA and flying FAI. That's fun. Ironic how NAR membership is irrelevant for getting an FAI Sporting License.

Rocketry competition will go on, somewhere. It's relevant in some circles. It's just not relevant, or getting irrelevant, within the NAR. I agree with scaling back the requirements for hosting a NARAM, and hope that the NAR uses the "rocket festival" model for building a premiere event that's purely a sport launch.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Add that of the three fastest growing rocketry competitions, none of them are hobby-related. These kids and the teams are generally not hobbyists. They can be hobbyists. Some are. But that's not what's driving the numbers. School systems, adults, corporations, and money are whats driving the numbers. And free NAR memberships. So they're not doing it just for fun. They do have fun with these activities, but that's not what the motivation is.

A question just occurred to me . . .

How do the countries of the WSMC maintain high interest in competition rocketry, at all age levels ?

Dave F.

 

[Antares JS]

Here you go . . .

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/survey-for-all-nar-members-with-regards-to-nar-competition.165802

QUOTE :

"competition events are a waste of valuable flying time"

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/survey-for-all-nar-members-with-regards-to-nar-competition.165802/#post-2127700

END QUOTE :

Dave F

All I see in that thread backs up my point that there is declining interest in NAR competition. I don't see anything about NAR sections refusing to host competition despite members clamoring for it.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Full Disclosure: I am not a NAR member and have no skin in this game. I'm just on this thread looking for NARAM news.

I think think that pretty much sums up your level of experience and expertise with the NAR, whatsoever.

Dave F.

 

[shockie]

A question just occurred to me . . .

How do the countries of the WSMC maintain high interest in competition rocketry, at all age levels ?

Dave F.

Government support primarily.

Let me elaborate some.

Each country has a NAC. A National Aero Club.
In the US that's the National Aeronautic Association. They have affiliates which is the AMA which has jurisdiction of model aircraft flying here in the US.
AMA has been delegated by the NAA for responsibility for model aircraft FAI events.
The AMA also used to be responsible for FAI spacemodeling competition but about 15 or so years ago washed their hands of that responsibility and delegated it to the NAR.

In all the east European countries and Russia during the cold War each countries NAC was sponsored by the government.
They decided that fai spacemodeling would be a good technical hobby for their young people. Because it required knowledge of math and science. So it was considered a STEM activity long before STEM even existed.
After the fall of communism these government sponsored NAC are still supported by their governments.

 

[samb]

Dave F. wrote in post #142
A question occurs to me...

I have sometimes wondered how the hobby works in other countries. Your question assumes a "high" interest in competition rocketry at all age levels in other countries. Is this a rhetorical question? Do you know the answer? Does it involve clubs organized around the 5 point plan you presented in post #110? Do the WSMC countries allow model rocketry in any other format ?

 

[astronwolf]

Government support primarily.

"High interest?" Really. The largest teams are about the same size as the US Team.

Dave F. wrote in post #142
A question occurs to me...

I have sometimes wondered how the hobby works in other countries. Your question assumes a "high" interest in competition rocketry at all age levels in other countries. Is this a rhetorical question?

There isn't "high interest" in competition rocketry over there. Look at the size of their teams. The teams get more support, and people's attitudes are different than in USA. But in terms of per capita participation in the activity - not so much interest.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Dave F. wrote in post #142
A question occurs to me...

I have sometimes wondered how the hobby works in other countries. Your question assumes a "high" interest in competition rocketry at all age levels in other countries. Is this a rhetorical question? Do you know the answer? Does it involve clubs organized around the 5 point plan you presented in post #110? Do the WSMC countries allow model rocketry in any other format ?

No, it's not a rhetorical question.

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

"High interest?" Really. The largest teams are about the same size as the US Team.


There isn't "high interest" in competition rocketry over there. Look at the size of their teams. The teams get more support, and people's attitudes are different than in USA. But in terms of per capita participation in the activity - not so much interest.

The number of teams is what I'm talking about and only the best team from each country goes to the WSMC. I believe that many more rocketeers flew, but did not "make the cut".

The teams get more support . . . ( We can learn something here ).

People's attitudes are different than in the USA . . . ( Perhaps, the root of the problem ).

This link shows the NAR U.S. Teams over the years . . . https://www.nar.org/fai-spacemodeling/past-u-s-teams

Photo of the 2018 U.S.A Team ( 26 Members - About half of all NARAM competitors ).

Note the age(s) of the team members . . . How many of those Junior competitors are not family members of other Team U.S.A. members ?




Dave F.

 

[Exactimator]

Dave F., Why are you pushing so hard for NRC competition participation? People don't seem to be very interested.