Gliding Booster Pods

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jqavins

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There are a good few ways of making booster pods that fall away from the main body of a rocket at their own burnout, and as far as I know they either fall, or come down on parachutes or streamers. Has anyone made them to glide down? It seems like that might not be too difficult.
 
I think the old Centuri Black Widow had a booster that was supposed to return via glide…

Reading accounts here on the forum, it sounds like there are varying degrees of success…
My bad, I left out key words: strap-on boosters. The rocket takes off as a three motor cluster, the side boosters drop away while the central motor is still burning, and the boosters come down, usually either tumbling or under chute/streamer. But I want strap-ons that become gliders when released.

The gliders' wings and tails would all just be fins to the full stack. It should be easy. Easyish.
 
My bad, I left out key words: strap-on boosters. The rocket takes off as a three motor cluster, the side boosters drop away while the central motor is still burning, and the boosters come down, usually either tumbling or under chute/streamer. But I want strap-ons that become gliders when released.

The gliders' wings and tails would all just be fins to the full stack. It should be easy. Easyish.
You’re thinking a parallel staged version of the ARV Condor then? That sounds amazingly cool.

Could probably modify it to release the gliders like the Apogee strap-on boosters. Would also need to make space for some fins on the main stack.
 
So, to my original question, none of you who've responded (and thank you) are aware of it having been done, is that right?

Maybe I'll attempt it. Maybe I should build some other glider first. Maybe I should finish the other three big projects on my desk first. Yes, I should finish those first.
 
IRL, DLR proposed liquid fly-back boosters for the Ariane 5, among similar proposals for other launchers.
lfbb.jpeg

Would be pretty darn cool on the Orbital Transport to convert the booster to glide back as the parasite glider does. Would likely mean enlarging the little canard foreplanes into functioning ones.
 
I don't recall ever seeing glide back boosters, trick will be detaching them and adjusting the cg for glide. Sounds fun can't wait to see what you come up with.
 
I don't recall ever seeing glide back boosters, trick will be detaching them and adjusting the cg for glide.
Well, here's why I think it should be easyish.

Detaching is a problem that a few people have solved, in a few ways. So, build a glider - body tube, wings with a little dihedral, tail section, nose cone - with a motor mount and trimmed with spent motor installed. Simple. No shifting the CG or the CP, no moving parts at all except whatever is involved in the release from the main rocket.

But the main rocket is a lot taller than the booster, so when the booster is attached to it, all those surfaces that make the glider work are just lots of oddly placed fins. The rocket after separation is just a 4FNC. Before separation it has a bunch of extra weight aft, and a bunch of extra fin area to help compensate for it.

I won't say it's altogether easy, because I'm not that naive. But I think it sounds simpler than most glide recovery designs, because you don't have to adjust the CG for glide.
 
Well, here's why I think it should be easyish.

Detaching is a problem that a few people have solved, in a few ways. So, build a glider - body tube, wings with a little dihedral, tail section, nose cone - with a motor mount and trimmed with spent motor installed. Simple. No shifting the CG or the CP, no moving parts at all except whatever is involved in the release from the main rocket.

But the main rocket is a lot taller than the booster, so when the booster is attached to it, all those surfaces that make the glider work are just lots of oddly placed fins. The rocket after separation is just a 4FNC. Before separation it has a bunch of extra weight aft, and a bunch of extra fin area to help compensate for it.

I won't say it's altogether easy, because I'm not that naive. But I think it sounds simpler than most glide recovery designs, because you don't have to adjust the CG for glide.
Solid plan, wings might need to be a bit larger to get the wing loading down to account for the spent motor weight. Should be interesting!
 
Problem with using the Apogee strap on booster mechanism is that the nose cones have to separate to allow the boosters to detach. how does the booster/glider work with a nose cone hanging from it? But what if you configure the boosters with added wings that make it fly tail first? Would the glider work better trailing a nose cone? Or do you just eject the nose cone (with a streamer) and it's not attached at all?
 
Problem with using the Apogee strap on booster mechanism is that the nose cones have to separate to allow the boosters to detach. how does the booster/glider work with a nose cone hanging from it?
Could make it so that the nose cone slides forward a set distance and then hits a stop.
Could even vent the ejection exhaust toward the center stage, for extra push-off force. So long as it can take the heat, as it were.
 
Problem with using the Apogee strap on booster mechanism is that the nose cones have to separate to allow the boosters to detach. how does the booster/glider work with a nose cone hanging from it? But what if you configure the boosters with added wings that make it fly tail first? Would the glider work better trailing a nose cone? Or do you just eject the nose cone (with a streamer) and it's not attached at all?
Could make it so that the nose cone slides forward a set distance and then hits a stop.
Could even vent the ejection exhaust toward the center stage, for extra push-off force. So long as it can take the heat, as it were.
I was thinking of two options there. First, there are other methods than Apogee's.

Second, I was thinking along the same line as @ReynoldsSlumber, and mulling over how best to do that. I'm leaning toward a slot or two in the nose cone shoulder and matching pins attached to the body tube, so the nose cone can move forward only the length of the slot(s).
 
Second, I was thinking along the same line as @ReynoldsSlumber, and mulling over how best to do that. I'm leaning toward a slot or two in the nose cone shoulder and matching pins attached to the body tube, so the nose cone can move forward only the length of the slot(s).
But then you have a nose cone on the glider that can wiggle, perhaps even move in and out, affecting the trim. Could that be a problem? I honestly don't know. Probably better than trailing a loose nose cone though. 😂

Could the ejection be used to push the nose cone up, and spin it on the pins so it locks into place? Slot the cone shoulder to do that at the end of travel.
 
How about a pylon on the main airframe with a 'locating pin' extending aft? The nose cone of the glider (balsa) has a hole drilled all the way through it, and the glider also has a ventral fin at the back with a protrusion/hook to engage against the bottom of the main airframe tube.

Thrust from the booster/glider is applied to the main airframe through the locating pin and the ventral fin, and then at booster motor ejection the ejection charge through the nose cone passage pushes the booster/glider aft off the pin.

Yes, the glider aero would be less than optimum with the hole in the nose cone, but I can't imagine the L/D for that 'craft' will be all that high anyway...
 
ISecond, I was thinking along the same line as @ReynoldsSlumber, and mulling over how best to do that. I'm leaning toward a slot or two in the nose cone shoulder and matching pins attached to the body tube, so the nose cone can move forward only the length of the slot(s).
Encourage designing a creative mechanism like that! Suggest that given the high accelerations involved, and also keeping in mind building light, it might be good to have a piston-like mechanism that hits a stop that goes around the circumference of the interior of the tube, thus distributing the stopping force around a circle. Could also cushion the stop with rubber or foam, to take it from like a thousand g's (something to be reckoned with, even with a light balsa nose cone) to a couple hundred.
 
I'd manage release with a burn thread cut by the side booster ejection charge. The thread is led through the body tube (punch holes just forward of the mmt) and then forward to a "hitching post" on the booster. The pods are primarily retained by thrust--if the burn thread isn't installed, they slide right off.

A couple of other interferences to consider:
I don't have a good sense of how big the pod wings need to be to make them glide. If they're so big that they'd interfere with the booster fins, then maybe give the booster two T-fins like Hotblack just posted in the half baked designs thread.

You don't want the pod gliders to fall directly under the booster so they don't get toasted by the flame. Either make the booster fairly large diameter or add a little catch at the aft end that will encourage the pod nose to fall away first

Any way you shake it, I'd plan to light BP motors with ematches for reliably simultaneous ignition.
 
Couple things.

1.symmetry is over-rated. Think Flat Cat and Edmonds Deltie among numerous others. So you don’t HAVE to have 2 gliders.

2. Difference between Boost Glider and Rocket Glider, does the motor stay with the glider or not?

Easy if you keep the motor attached to the main, you can eject the glider off the main (so technically this would be a parasite boost glider, as the glider doesn’t “carry” the motors.)

I think however you really WANT the motors to separate WITH the glider (so technically a rocket glider, which will descend with the expended booster motor casing.) This could be tougher.

Although you don’t have to have the symmetry, the MPC Lunar Patrol setup could be unilateral or bilateral, and could be e helpful start for either boost glider or rocket glider configs, as far as holding all the pieces in place during boost phase. If you go with the boost glider, you can friction fit the motor into the base tube which is ATTACHED to the booster, with an inch or so of motor sticking out forward, then just slide the glider over the forward extension. Ejection charge (or for zero delay motor, the burn through) will pop the glider right off.

If you go the rocket glider approach, you will need some some more secure “bracing” of the glider to keep it from slipping from side to side or tilting. A burn string or band will be all you need to keep the glider from coming off laterally AND IMO should also be good enough to prevent it from slipping FORWARD at boost or backward at any time.
.1719698183516.jpeg

A true delta wing glider I think would be a more efficient choice than something like am MPC Flat Cat OR Estes Tercel type.

I like but would modify the burn string attachment, change it to an elastic band, my go to has been #16 rubber bands, since they are already looped and don’t require knots. IMO elastic is FAR better than non-elastic burn bands because they STAY tight. Maybe it’s me but with only a single loop of no elastic cord no matter how tight I make it, it seems like it starts to get loose in minutes, giving you some waggle where you don’t want it.

Many of my models use a pair of #16 rubber bands for a combination of rotor retention AND motor block, I have yet to see them fail in either, so I think for low power if properly used they would easily and reliably hold one or more “strap on” boosters in place. You’d want to run them through the body tube(s) of the booster(s). You could even use the vent holes (which if nose cones are glued in you will DEFINITELY NEED). You do NOT have to route them through the sustainer, you should be able to wrap them around the outside onto some kind of hook. You’d need to rig some sort of stiffener or brace to keep the string or band from “cutting” through the paper tube, but lots of easy and hard ways to skin that cat.

The gliders will function as stabilizing fins during first part of boost, once they pop off (I’m guessing at or just before sustainer coast phase) you will still need some degree of maintained finnage on the sustainer. I theeeeenk you should need far less finnage on the sustainer after separation for 2 reasons, first the rocket should be at Max Q (at least for the stack), which is likely much faster than at the end of the rod or rail, so whatever fins remain should be at ideal velocity for subsonic flight. Second, likely CG is going to shift waaaaaay forward when you drop the boosters, especially their motors.

Here’s an interesting part. I am not sure if the rocket with the strap on boosters will go much higher than the SAME rocket WITHOUT the boosters. Rationale: for black powder strap on boosters, main engine burnout (THRUST DURATION) may not be much different from the booster motor burnout, for example of you have a C6-7 sustainer and two C6-0 boosters, I’d expect all three to cease thrust at roughly the same time. For thus sustainer, there is no more positive acceleration, it’s now in coast phase, and I am presuming the smoke delay produces essentially zero thrust.

DRAG will go down, yes.

MASS will go down, but while this would be good for altitude under THRUST, in coast phase the mass becomes your kinetic energy.

So without any thrust, it’s a contest between kinetic energy keeping the rocket moving up and both gravity and drag slowing it down. So I’m not sure which wins.

OTOH, if you use a long burn sustainer motor, you should do better with boosters if they are short burn. With black powder low power motors (which are pretty much all you can use it this case, mixing black powder and composites brings a host of solvable but annoying problems), Thrust duration seems pretty short with all your choices,
 
Couple things.

1.symmetry is over-rated. Think Flat Cat and Edmonds Deltie among numerous others. So you don’t HAVE to have 2 gliders.

2. Difference between Boost Glider and Rocket Glider, does the motor stay with the glider or not?

Easy if you keep the motor attached to the main, you can eject the glider off the main (so technically this would be a parasite boost glider, as the glider doesn’t “carry” the motors.)

I think however you really WANT the motors to separate WITH the glider (so technically a rocket glider, which will descend with the expended booster motor casing.) This could be tougher.

Although you don’t have to have the symmetry, the MPC Lunar Patrol setup could be unilateral or bilateral, and could be e helpful start for either boost glider or rocket glider configs, as far as holding all the pieces in place during boost phase. If you go with the boost glider, you can friction fit the motor into the base tube which is ATTACHED to the booster, with an inch or so of motor sticking out forward, then just slide the glider over the forward extension. Ejection charge (or for zero delay motor, the burn through) will pop the glider right off.

If you go the rocket glider approach, you will need some some more secure “bracing” of the glider to keep it from slipping from side to side or tilting. A burn string or band will be all you need to keep the glider from coming off laterally AND IMO should also be good enough to prevent it from slipping FORWARD at boost or backward at any time.
.View attachment 653377

A true delta wing glider I think would be a more efficient choice than something like am MPC Flat Cat OR Estes Tercel type.

I like but would modify the burn string attachment, change it to an elastic band, my go to has been #16 rubber bands, since they are already looped and don’t require knots. IMO elastic is FAR better than non-elastic burn bands because they STAY tight. Maybe it’s me but with only a single loop of no elastic cord no matter how tight I make it, it seems like it starts to get loose in minutes, giving you some waggle where you don’t want it.

Many of my models use a pair of #16 rubber bands for a combination of rotor retention AND motor block, I have yet to see them fail in either, so I think for low power if properly used they would easily and reliably hold one or more “strap on” boosters in place. You’d want to run them through the body tube(s) of the booster(s). You could even use the vent holes (which if nose cones are glued in you will DEFINITELY NEED). You do NOT have to route them through the sustainer, you should be able to wrap them around the outside onto some kind of hook. You’d need to rig some sort of stiffener or brace to keep the string or band from “cutting” through the paper tube, but lots of easy and hard ways to skin that cat.

The gliders will function as stabilizing fins during first part of boost, once they pop off (I’m guessing at or just before sustainer coast phase) you will still need some degree of maintained finnage on the sustainer. I theeeeenk you should need far less finnage on the sustainer after separation for 2 reasons, first the rocket should be at Max Q (at least for the stack), which is likely much faster than at the end of the rod or rail, so whatever fins remain should be at ideal velocity for subsonic flight. Second, likely CG is going to shift waaaaaay forward when you drop the boosters, especially their motors.

Here’s an interesting part. I am not sure if the rocket with the strap on boosters will go much higher than the SAME rocket WITHOUT the boosters. Rationale: for black powder strap on boosters, main engine burnout (THRUST DURATION) may not be much different from the booster motor burnout, for example of you have a C6-7 sustainer and two C6-0 boosters, I’d expect all three to cease thrust at roughly the same time. For thus sustainer, there is no more positive acceleration, it’s now in coast phase, and I am presuming the smoke delay produces essentially zero thrust.

DRAG will go down, yes.

MASS will go down, but while this would be good for altitude under THRUST, in coast phase the mass becomes your kinetic energy.

So without any thrust, it’s a contest between kinetic energy keeping the rocket moving up and both gravity and drag slowing it down. So I’m not sure which wins.

OTOH, if you use a long burn sustainer motor, you should do better with boosters if they are short burn. With black powder low power motors (which are pretty much all you can use it this case, mixing black powder and composites brings a host of solvable but annoying problems), Thrust duration seems pretty short with all your choices,
A crazy permutation that sprang to mind from the above. What if instead of strap on boosters the glide back booster is an inline glider/booster, if you're intent on the sustainer getting significant altitude after staging. Or more insanity strap on and in line staging, when the inline booster stages and separates it releases the boosted gliders.
 
A crazy permutation that sprang to mind from the above. What if instead of strap on boosters the glide back booster is an inline glider/booster, if you're intent on the sustainer getting significant altitude after staging. Or more insanity strap on and in line staging, when the inline booster stages and separates it releases the boosted gliders.
The Centuri Black Widow (or it’s Estes Twin, the Tiger Shark) were SUPPOSED to do the former, people have had mixed I think mostly poor results with getting any decent glide from booster. (I couldn’t get it it work, anyway.)

I had a Chimera designed and built but never flew.

It was a two stage cluster,

Booster had three 18 mm mounts, all loaded with C6-0s

The outboards deployed gliders, a bit like the Lunar Patrol in orientation, but just “blew” them off the front at booster engine burn through (technically boosters don’t eject, but they have a weak but usually effective b,ow through if you don’t pack tightly). Rest of booster tumbled. The central booster was to light an 18mm A8-3 which was helicopter deployment. Never quite got it fitted right. So in total it would be a

Cluster (pun perhaps intended)

Two Stage

Glider (dual)

Tumble (booster)

Helicopter (sustainer)

I mean, why do something easy like a chute or a streamer,,,,,
 
The Centuri Black Widow (or it’s Estes Twin, the Tiger Shark) were SUPPOSED to do the former, people have had mixed I think mostly poor results with getting any decent glide from booster. (I couldn’t get it it work, anyway.)

I had a Chimera designed and built but never flew.

It was a two stage cluster,

Booster had three 18 mm mounts, all loaded with C6-0s

The outboards deployed gliders, a bit like the Lunar Patrol in orientation, but just “blew” them off the front at booster engine burn through (technically boosters don’t eject, but they have a weak but usually effective b,ow through if you don’t pack tightly). Rest of booster tumbled. The central booster was to light an 18mm A8-3 which was helicopter deployment. Never quite got it fitted right. So in total it would be a

Cluster (pun perhaps intended)

Two Stage

Glider (dual)

Tumble (booster)

Helicopter (sustainer)

I mean, why do something easy like a chute or a streamer,,,,,
If it is worth doing it is worth over doing!
 
I admittedly am ignorant about rbgs, but has anyone done one where there is a glider with the motor in the nose and the glider is pointed downwards (large wings now at rocket base)? This way, with a hook attachment, during boost it stays on and lifts the main body (which has two rear fins), but at ejection it shoots down and the empty motor is the nose weight to help it glide?
 
I admittedly am ignorant about rbgs, but has anyone done one where there is a glider with the motor in the nose and the glider is pointed downwards (large wings now at rocket base)? This way, with a hook attachment, during boost it stays on and lifts the main body (which has two rear fins), but at ejection it shoots down and the empty motor is the nose weight to help it glide?
Thought about it, never even came up with decent drawing. It has potential!
 
Couple things.

1.symmetry is over-rated. Think Flat Cat and Edmonds Deltie among numerous others. So you don’t HAVE to have 2 gliders.

2. Difference between Boost Glider and Rocket Glider, does the motor stay with the glider or not?

Easy if you keep the motor attached to the main, you can eject the glider off the main (so technically this would be a parasite boost glider, as the glider doesn’t “carry” the motors.)

I think however you really WANT the motors to separate WITH the glider (so technically a rocket glider, which will descend with the expended booster motor casing.) This could be tougher.

Although you don’t have to have the symmetry, the MPC Lunar Patrol setup could be unilateral or bilateral, and could be e helpful start for either boost glider or rocket glider configs, as far as holding all the pieces in place during boost phase. If you go with the boost glider, you can friction fit the motor into the base tube which is ATTACHED to the booster, with an inch or so of motor sticking out forward, then just slide the glider over the forward extension. Ejection charge (or for zero delay motor, the burn through) will pop the glider right off.

If you go the rocket glider approach, you will need some some more secure “bracing” of the glider to keep it from slipping from side to side or tilting. A burn string or band will be all you need to keep the glider from coming off laterally AND IMO should also be good enough to prevent it from slipping FORWARD at boost or backward at any time.
.View attachment 653377

A true delta wing glider I think would be a more efficient choice than something like am MPC Flat Cat OR Estes Tercel type.

I like but would modify the burn string attachment, change it to an elastic band, my go to has been #16 rubber bands, since they are already looped and don’t require knots. IMO elastic is FAR better than non-elastic burn bands because they STAY tight. Maybe it’s me but with only a single loop of no elastic cord no matter how tight I make it, it seems like it starts to get loose in minutes, giving you some waggle where you don’t want it.

Many of my models use a pair of #16 rubber bands for a combination of rotor retention AND motor block, I have yet to see them fail in either, so I think for low power if properly used they would easily and reliably hold one or more “strap on” boosters in place. You’d want to run them through the body tube(s) of the booster(s). You could even use the vent holes (which if nose cones are glued in you will DEFINITELY NEED). You do NOT have to route them through the sustainer, you should be able to wrap them around the outside onto some kind of hook. You’d need to rig some sort of stiffener or brace to keep the string or band from “cutting” through the paper tube, but lots of easy and hard ways to skin that cat.

The gliders will function as stabilizing fins during first part of boost, once they pop off (I’m guessing at or just before sustainer coast phase) you will still need some degree of maintained finnage on the sustainer. I theeeeenk you should need far less finnage on the sustainer after separation for 2 reasons, first the rocket should be at Max Q (at least for the stack), which is likely much faster than at the end of the rod or rail, so whatever fins remain should be at ideal velocity for subsonic flight. Second, likely CG is going to shift waaaaaay forward when you drop the boosters, especially their motors.

Here’s an interesting part. I am not sure if the rocket with the strap on boosters will go much higher than the SAME rocket WITHOUT the boosters. Rationale: for black powder strap on boosters, main engine burnout (THRUST DURATION) may not be much different from the booster motor burnout, for example of you have a C6-7 sustainer and two C6-0 boosters, I’d expect all three to cease thrust at roughly the same time. For thus sustainer, there is no more positive acceleration, it’s now in coast phase, and I am presuming the smoke delay produces essentially zero thrust.

DRAG will go down, yes.

MASS will go down, but while this would be good for altitude under THRUST, in coast phase the mass becomes your kinetic energy.

So without any thrust, it’s a contest between kinetic energy keeping the rocket moving up and both gravity and drag slowing it down. So I’m not sure which wins.

OTOH, if you use a long burn sustainer motor, you should do better with boosters if they are short burn. With black powder low power motors (which are pretty much all you can use it this case, mixing black powder and composites brings a host of solvable but annoying problems), Thrust duration seems pretty short with all your choices,
Well, it's taken me a while to find a comfortably convenient time to read through this.

First, this is not about boost gliders, and not even intended to be about rocket gliders (though it turns out to be that from the way it works). This is about strap-on boosters. And strap-on boosters need some sort of recovery, so why not try making the boosters glide? I'm not looking for optimal performance, just for a novel way to recover strap-ons.

It is my plan to have a substantially longer burn in the central core than in the strap-ons, something like B6-C6 or B6-D12.
1719936881842.png

As for finage on the central core, see post #12.
 
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