Rocketry Black Friday Sales
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Yeah, it was fun to watch Bdale lay out that board. He kept saying 'I'll bet I can shave off another few mm if I just move parts around and reroute the board'. He's nuts, and he knows it
With altimeters, in most cases, smaller is better.
CarVac
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With regards to pricing wars, this becomes a problem when the products sold/services rendered become too similar, as is the case with many online retailers selling motors.
Example 1: Netbooks. All netbooks were essentially the same (because of Intel crippling the Atom and not developing it further), so different computer manufacturers competed on cost rather than features and quality. They largely (but not entirely) disappeared from the market, since they were unprofitable for the manufacturers. Ultrabooks don't seem to be making that same mistake, since various manufacturers' hardware are surprisingly different, meaning there is more to compete on than price.
Example 2: DSLR's (particularly from Nikon, these days) and Micro 4/3. Micro 4/3, which is a relatively new camera/lens system, has been iterating extremely fast with its products, with great improvements each time. However, they are competing against all of the stock of older models which sell for less than half of the new price, which makes consumers either buy the cheaper old version, or wait for the next one since the current top is going to be obsolete soon. Fortunately for them, their products are maturing a little, and their top end cameras are at the point where you could want little more.
On the other hand, Nikon in particular has been having constant sales on even new models of DSLR's, leading people to expect prices to drop. If your customer can predict and wait for the price to fall, then you are in a quandary: wait to drop the prices and lose sales to other brands, or drop prices now and make less money.
These are problems for electronics companies, but it's worse with rocketry. The problem in rocketry is that people have been conditioned to expect massive, massive sales in huge quantities around Thanksgiving, which lets them stock up and basically avoid buying motors full-price entirely. Unlike durable goods like a camera or a computer for which waiting to buy incurs an opportunity cost (you don't get to use them until you buy them), rocket motors last until you use them, so there is no incentive for consumers to buy reloads at full price ever when there are sales that are repetitive and predictable.
Example 1: Netbooks. All netbooks were essentially the same (because of Intel crippling the Atom and not developing it further), so different computer manufacturers competed on cost rather than features and quality. They largely (but not entirely) disappeared from the market, since they were unprofitable for the manufacturers. Ultrabooks don't seem to be making that same mistake, since various manufacturers' hardware are surprisingly different, meaning there is more to compete on than price.
Example 2: DSLR's (particularly from Nikon, these days) and Micro 4/3. Micro 4/3, which is a relatively new camera/lens system, has been iterating extremely fast with its products, with great improvements each time. However, they are competing against all of the stock of older models which sell for less than half of the new price, which makes consumers either buy the cheaper old version, or wait for the next one since the current top is going to be obsolete soon. Fortunately for them, their products are maturing a little, and their top end cameras are at the point where you could want little more.
On the other hand, Nikon in particular has been having constant sales on even new models of DSLR's, leading people to expect prices to drop. If your customer can predict and wait for the price to fall, then you are in a quandary: wait to drop the prices and lose sales to other brands, or drop prices now and make less money.
These are problems for electronics companies, but it's worse with rocketry. The problem in rocketry is that people have been conditioned to expect massive, massive sales in huge quantities around Thanksgiving, which lets them stock up and basically avoid buying motors full-price entirely. Unlike durable goods like a camera or a computer for which waiting to buy incurs an opportunity cost (you don't get to use them until you buy them), rocket motors last until you use them, so there is no incentive for consumers to buy reloads at full price ever when there are sales that are repetitive and predictable.
Quaranta
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I object. :wink: Assumes facts not in evidence. :grin:
<I'm not a lawyer,... but I did watch a crime show last week!>
I'd be curious to hear Tim's motor sales stats by month.
I'd be surprised if November was more than 20% of his years motor sales. I don't think most buyers are ordering a years supply of motors in 6 hours 1 saturday morning in November.
Considering that most of Tim's November / December sales do occur on that day,... one would expect it to be nearly 20% just by compressing late fall sales to they single day.
jsargevt
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Actually, I think that the demise of the netbook was the emergence of something better. With the advent of tablet-type devices the netbook's niche was "moved" to a more useful form factor. I have OSX running on a Dell Mini9 - and it is pretty usable except that the netbook form factor is kind of irritating as compared to an iPad or whatever Android tablet you like - the screen is small, the keyboard cramped and the battery life is pretty terrible. However, at the time, it was a good solution for a portable device which wasn't astronomical in price. I suppose that it has some life as an on-site machine for launches - I can run rocksim for motor modeling pull altimeter configs and all that off if I needed to. Just another example of where technological innovation makes today's "must haves" into "can't get rid ofs".
Quaranta
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Only if a significant percentage do. If 1-2% do,... that's no fatal to a viable business. The flip side is,... how many are lured in by discounted motors who otherwise wouldn't?
But I think the flip side is people buy things they otherwise wouldn't.
I only intended on buying a mini-eagle, and some 75mm H/w
But,... in the end I bought a 2.6" FG Pike (mad cow) and a 3" Black Dark Star... with a 54mm tube (in addition to the Mini-eagle) as prices were good. And then bought some 54mm hw for the darkstar.
Well guess what will be in my future? Motors for the new rockets, including 54mm variety that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.
I'm curious what Mr K. (Scott, if I may) thinks of AT and CTI's "Cert for Free" programs that are out there now. Free motors and free HW!!! Clearly this is to get people in... no different than free food samples at CostCo (I worked hard to avoid a drug dealer analogy!!)... Personally, I love it! More customers is good. More in the Hobby is good.
CarVac
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Actually, I love my Eee PC (1005HA, if you're curious) for all except speed. My battery life is a monstrous and repeatable 9 hours of actual use (it easily outstrips my Galaxy Nexus phone, which can withstand about 2 hours of screen-on time), and its keyboard is actually quite excellent. Likewise, I use it for running OpenRocket and RASAero at launches. But with the new Windows 8 tablets it might become fully obsolete, since they will soon have both the tablet form factor and the ability to run arbitrary Windows programs without compromise.
jsargevt
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Here is the deal with Loki, as I can understand it.
CTI/AT - they are like the GM/Ford/Toyota/Honda: they have large "volume" and a wide variety of options from pedestian/appliance to sporty.
Loki - BMW M-series /MB AMG / Lotus / Porsche: They have a target market which is more interested in "performance" - and people are willing to pay extra for it and don't normally see a discount.
People who are interested in getting the least expensive option wouldn't find Loki to be their go-to. People who appreciate the utility of the loki casings where you can run EX and Commercial in the same casing with minimal hassle are the ones who will be most interested in it. Or so I conclude at this point in time.
The "cert for free" programs don't directly benefit Loki. The "for free" programs are aimed at giving you the razor handle knowing that the sales in blades will make up for it. All this is doing is buying some loyalty to a Vendor as most people staring out are shocked at the cost of HPR and anything to do to minimize the outlay is helpful. They might benefit Loki indirectly as people get interested in EX or whatever but the core of his business wouldn't be anyone who is doing a "for free" offer.
CTI/AT - they are like the GM/Ford/Toyota/Honda: they have large "volume" and a wide variety of options from pedestian/appliance to sporty.
Loki - BMW M-series /MB AMG / Lotus / Porsche: They have a target market which is more interested in "performance" - and people are willing to pay extra for it and don't normally see a discount.
People who are interested in getting the least expensive option wouldn't find Loki to be their go-to. People who appreciate the utility of the loki casings where you can run EX and Commercial in the same casing with minimal hassle are the ones who will be most interested in it. Or so I conclude at this point in time.
The "cert for free" programs don't directly benefit Loki. The "for free" programs are aimed at giving you the razor handle knowing that the sales in blades will make up for it. All this is doing is buying some loyalty to a Vendor as most people staring out are shocked at the cost of HPR and anything to do to minimize the outlay is helpful. They might benefit Loki indirectly as people get interested in EX or whatever but the core of his business wouldn't be anyone who is doing a "for free" offer.
Loki Research
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:smile: Mr. K.
That's what the high school band kids called my Dad in class. Both of my parents (retired) and my sister were/are instrumental/vocal music teachers in the Missouri public school system.
Free hardware & cert loads sound great for the end user. But if I understand correctly, for at least one of these deals, in order for a vendor to participate, they have to order/stock both the reload & hardware in the first place & are billed for it. The vendor has to cover the shipping cost to themselves, has to cover the time and cost to deliver it to the customer. They are responsible to collect and submit the required paperwork in order to get compensated for each cert combo, which takes time to track & monitor. The compensation for this effort is a replacement of the same reload & HW. Back to square one. Be sure to thank them for this extra time and effort!
Remember that dealers usually stock more reloads than hardware at least 5:1. It is possible to get stuck with more hardware in the end if they dont plan well ahead of time. The hope of course is to sell more of the reloads down the road. IMO, the hardwares value will drop even further, becoming that of the cell phones we throw away after a year or twos use. Someone mentioned that analogy before.
For me, it's different. With the easy of use & assembly, ease of modification and repair, multiple re-use of the nozzles, snap ring motors for EX use are a no brainer. The owner may chose to not run another certified motor for a while, saving it for their start in EX. Maybe they take the free combo just so they can sell the HW to an EX buddy afterwards. Whether or not they do this, giving them the HW would devalue it for both of these markets. Id rather its value not be diminished, especially at a time when I am trying to improve it and build value. Also, Im still trying to recoup from the company purchase, start-up and moving costs.
With that in mind, its not such a good idea for me. Right now, I'm just a kid playing stick ball out in the street with those who don't follow the ball game.
Maybe if I had a ~dozen+ employees and a handful of government contracts, I could afford to cover the losses up front and buy my own practice field. :smile:
Loki Research
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:smile: I like this. It follows suit with the main brand that earned me a living for 7 years. The marina I sold for had over $14 million in new sales with this brand alone in 2005 and was the #1 dealer, IN THE WORLD. Where was this? About 3 miles down the lake, here in central Missouri.
The Bently of pleasure boats. For you Kansas folks, I still think they are a cut above a Cobalt, but that's another discussion.
Their level of quality, perfection and attention to detail is what I strive for.
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I am not yet an avid HP flyer though I am working in that direction and hope to be one day...
That said there are a couple cases that I would remind everyone about, some you know, others you may not...
1) Wal-Mart and some of the other Big Box stores grew to the place where they could demand that the manufacturers supply at a particular price and even demand that they cut their price over the one agreed to during the previous year. Because the Big Box store sales accounted for up to 80 percent of their sales, the manufacturer had to comply or lose 80 percent of their business. The end result was that, in order to meet their demands, the manufacturers cut corners, cut research and development and other areas and then, went bankrupt or got cut off by the big stores anyway. This is how we lost (mostly) Rubbermaid (now owned by another company after bankruptcy) and McCullough chainsaws (lack of R&D made them unable to comply with new emissions laws ending in bankruptcy) and other companies. Still other companies, who make great stuff, refuse to sell to the big box stores so, while they innovate and produce great products, many people have never heard of them.
2) One of my hobbies has been keeping aquarium fish. Although you wouldn't at first think so, mail order and the Internet has devastated the local pet store business as well as competition from the "super" pet store chains. People love to buy their supplies on the cheap by mail, but when it comes time to buy fish they have no idea what to buy and no one who can tell them. The local guys couldn't make a living selling fish because the bulk of the profits were in selling maintenance supplies that everyone was buying online. With the local pet stores gone, the only place to buy fish was at Wal-Mart or at the "super" pet stores, both of which employ minimum wage high school kids who have no idea what fish are in the tank, which can get along with one another, which one need different water chemistry to survive, how big they'll get or much of anything else. Worse, these stores that concentrate on volume sales usually have fish in tanks that are poorly maintained and fish that are highly stressed and near death. Buying these animals is an invitation to disappointment and dead fish. it's hard to get new people into the hobby when many of them have a negative first experience. Serious hobbyists have learned the hard way that we need to support the local, full-service, pet stores that sell supplies but also have a depth of knowledge that help us to be successful... but there are precious few of them left, even in more urban areas.
3) Many of us know the same sort of sad tale is true of local hardware stores. Lowe's and Home Depot are great, but just try to find ONE screw or nut when you're working on a project, or a sales person who can tell you what paint you need or how to repair your broken "whosit."
I am pointing fingers at no one but history has shown that sometimes the cheapest price is the more expensive in the long run.
Just something to think about...
That said there are a couple cases that I would remind everyone about, some you know, others you may not...
1) Wal-Mart and some of the other Big Box stores grew to the place where they could demand that the manufacturers supply at a particular price and even demand that they cut their price over the one agreed to during the previous year. Because the Big Box store sales accounted for up to 80 percent of their sales, the manufacturer had to comply or lose 80 percent of their business. The end result was that, in order to meet their demands, the manufacturers cut corners, cut research and development and other areas and then, went bankrupt or got cut off by the big stores anyway. This is how we lost (mostly) Rubbermaid (now owned by another company after bankruptcy) and McCullough chainsaws (lack of R&D made them unable to comply with new emissions laws ending in bankruptcy) and other companies. Still other companies, who make great stuff, refuse to sell to the big box stores so, while they innovate and produce great products, many people have never heard of them.
2) One of my hobbies has been keeping aquarium fish. Although you wouldn't at first think so, mail order and the Internet has devastated the local pet store business as well as competition from the "super" pet store chains. People love to buy their supplies on the cheap by mail, but when it comes time to buy fish they have no idea what to buy and no one who can tell them. The local guys couldn't make a living selling fish because the bulk of the profits were in selling maintenance supplies that everyone was buying online. With the local pet stores gone, the only place to buy fish was at Wal-Mart or at the "super" pet stores, both of which employ minimum wage high school kids who have no idea what fish are in the tank, which can get along with one another, which one need different water chemistry to survive, how big they'll get or much of anything else. Worse, these stores that concentrate on volume sales usually have fish in tanks that are poorly maintained and fish that are highly stressed and near death. Buying these animals is an invitation to disappointment and dead fish. it's hard to get new people into the hobby when many of them have a negative first experience. Serious hobbyists have learned the hard way that we need to support the local, full-service, pet stores that sell supplies but also have a depth of knowledge that help us to be successful... but there are precious few of them left, even in more urban areas.
3) Many of us know the same sort of sad tale is true of local hardware stores. Lowe's and Home Depot are great, but just try to find ONE screw or nut when you're working on a project, or a sales person who can tell you what paint you need or how to repair your broken "whosit."
I am pointing fingers at no one but history has shown that sometimes the cheapest price is the more expensive in the long run.
Just something to think about...
blackbrandt
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Don't even get me started on the nuts...
Me: "Where are your 1/4 20 nuts?"
Employee 1: "Dunno. Lemme radio somebody."
Employee 2 comes.
Employee 1: "I need help finding the 1/4 20 nuts."
Employee 2: "Dunno. Lemme radio somebody." (He never even looked at the shelf.)
Radios manager.
Employee 2: "Where are the 1/4 20 nuts?"
Manager: "Right in front of you."
(Oh, and all the while, my family was out in the car waiting for me. (Lowes is on the way home from church.))
rcktnut
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For me it's pretty much a no-brainer, I'll buy as many motors as I can afford at the time for 40% off. I don't know about anybody else but I feel better getting more "bangs" for my bucks. I like keeping at least a years supply of reloads on hand anyway. As of this coming new year it will be the first time in which I will actually save a little more for next years sale should there be one.
If there is not a sale I will buy from and try to keep in business the vendor that has the lowest everyday prices. If I can buy a reload at everyday prices for $180.00 with no hazmat fee and another vendor has the same everyday price of $225.00 with strings attached or $250.00 no strings plus have to pay hazmat, I do the math and who ever comes out lowest gets my money.
If there is not a sale I will buy from and try to keep in business the vendor that has the lowest everyday prices. If I can buy a reload at everyday prices for $180.00 with no hazmat fee and another vendor has the same everyday price of $225.00 with strings attached or $250.00 no strings plus have to pay hazmat, I do the math and who ever comes out lowest gets my money.
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I have business relationships with a couple vendors that do Black *day sales (MadCow and Wildman), and get things at their sales.
I also buy from Featherweight (just ordered 3 magnetic switches), Squirrel Works, FlisKits, Giant Leap, Off We Go Rocketry, Wildman Kentucky, and many others.
I'm a big believer in supporting those who support what I do, and the launches I attend.
I can also quite honestly say that the professional way in which Scott has handled this discussion has me ready to try some Loki propellant in the future.
-Kevin
I also buy from Featherweight (just ordered 3 magnetic switches), Squirrel Works, FlisKits, Giant Leap, Off We Go Rocketry, Wildman Kentucky, and many others.
I'm a big believer in supporting those who support what I do, and the launches I attend.
I can also quite honestly say that the professional way in which Scott has handled this discussion has me ready to try some Loki propellant in the future.
-Kevin
I have to admit to adding some hardware to the wishlist as well.
SecretSquirrel
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We've had some inquiries about why we didn't put all our kits on sale during the Black Friday/Cyber Monday period. It was a matter of timing. We had just finished a month long anniversary sale and weren't able to fully restock in time. We could only offer some kits on sale again and only for a short time due to reduced inventory.
Loki Research
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Quaranta said:I object. :smile: Assumes facts not in evidence.
<I'm not a lawyer,... but I did watch a crime show last week!>
I'd be curious to hear Tim's motor sales stats by month.
I'd be surprised if November was more than 20% of his years motor sales. I don't think most buyers are ordering a years supply of motors in 6 hours 1 saturday morning in November.
Considering that most of Tim's November / December sales do occur on that day,... one would expect it to be nearly 20% just by compressing late fall sales to they single day.
Wayco said:
Quaranta said:
And what if you have both of these types of customers and everything in between.
WILDMANRS said:
Are you kidding me not even the manufactures stock that much inventory.
We had over 2500 lbs. of fiberglass waiting for this sale this year.
Well there's your answer. You heard the man. "I took us over 3 days just to ring in the orders not even seperate them by what was ordered to try and pack them."
Only 20%? I think not.
And the cycle will continue downward as it spreads out to all the vendors cutting prices as a neccesity to keep sales up out of the red. Does no one watch the History Channel? Do you think the phenolic rocket guys are gonna be around for much longer? Not if they can't profit from what they do any more. So much for those people and their employees. I've personally stepped foot inside PML and got to cruise around the place. I'd sure as hell hate to see them go and be lost with the other greats like Thoy and Rockets R&D.
I can't believe Barry at LOC Precision will be having a company picnic anytime soon either. But hey, that's business...............right?
No comments on the Magnum price list anyone?
uhm, no.
Model year end sales are there to move the last of inventory. It gets very hard to find some cars and many are switched into the new year's cars.
As for paying full price? People will pay full price when the car is in demand and there is no inventory.
I would say none. The cost of the reload is small compared to the rest of the rocket in many cases. Especially true of high power.
you are simplifying the car business. In many cases, GM and Ford were discounting heavily because there were too many dealers.
One of the stories discussed during iHobby Expo was this. Manufacturers are realizing they need to support some of their smaller dealers and get away from the bigger ones. One, unnamed, is moving away from amazon. Others are considering implementing fixed online pricing (no discounts) for their products. One large, and I mean large, train company was rumored to be doing this. As a side note, an amazon buyer was at the show. Given the cold shoulder by many.
so now you will be buying motors from companies who don't follow shipping rules?
there is a saying on believing what you hear on the internet :eyeroll:
Scott I've been trying to understand what your point was with that price list from 2001...I actually went and compared the prices on that list with the published list prices from Aerotech for this year for a dozen different motors, everything from the E18 all the way up to the N2000. In every single case the MSRP has gone up. For Hobby Line and L1 class motors the prices have increased roughly 50-100%. For L2 class motors the prices have increased roughly 20-40%. For L3 class motors the prices have increased roughly 5-10%. There could be many explanations for why the average price increase is less with increasing impulse, it could be an economy of scale-- either speaking in terms of propellant mass as a proportion of total reload component costs, or in terms of the quantities of each class of motor produced and sold. I have no idea, that is all just speculation on my part, but I'd wager there are a lot more folks burning L, M, N+ motors now than there were eleven years ago. Or it could be something as simple as Aerotech raising prices at each level to what they think the market can bear-- it's not too hard to swallow $24.99 for a three pack of E18s (up from $12.25 on your price list) but it would be hard to push the price for an N2000 at the same rate ($729.95 in 2001, $799.99 now, but who's going to pay $1500?).
But the point is that in every single case that I checked the price has gone up, and yet you seemed to imply that we're paying less for motors today than in the past. I don't know, maybe it's true if you are mostly flying L2 and L3 motors and mostly buying them online at huge Black Friday sales. I've ordered BP and Hobby Line motors through the mail, but I've never had a mail order that I had to pay HazMat on. And guess what, when I buy my HPR motors from the vendor at the launch I'm paying full MSRP so: no, I'm not paying less for motors today.
I'm happy to support my local vendors, and in many cases I am knowingly paying more for something than I need to. But something that hasn't been said in this discussion is the fact that such willful excess is a luxury of the rich. Okay I'm not exactly rich, but I do have a lot more disposable income now than when I was younger. That's probably true for most people after they survive the Top Ramen school years and go on to have a J.O.B. But I can certainly remember what it's like, wanting to participate in some sport or interest but not really being able to afford to. So if these crazy Black Friday sales allow someone to try a fiberglass kit who otherwise wouldn't be able to, or to buy a big fat M motor in pursuit of their L3 cert dream, or simply to build more kits and fly more motors on a limited budget, well I get it and I'm happy for them. And I don't blame the businesses for ruining the hobby. One could argue that they are just as likely to be thanked for growing our hobby. There are a lot more people who can afford a $100 Dark Star than a $300 Dark Star, and if that brings new people into the HPR fold then we all win. It's not at all difficult to imagine a future Loki customer down the road who got his/her start in HPR with a Black Friday kit or reload special last month.
Loki Research
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These things have a ripple effect that is inevitable and unavoidable.
The hobby though small will survive, but there will be changes in both the vendors that are still around, as well as those friends you've come to know. If you don't believe me, take a drive through Pontiac Michigan. In 2008 when I worked at Spire Integrated in Troy MI, I took a drive though Pontiac to pick up a plasma TV. Before I left, the secretary asked me if I had been there yet. I said no. The look on here face said it all.
(Nutshell version) Americans stopped buying domestic cars. Foreign cars were better in quality and even cheaper in price. As a result, Pontiac lost over 200,000 manufacturing jobs. Ripple,....other business in town closed up.....ripple...... many people left town. Ripple.....so many people left that they had to close 9 of 20 public schools because of a deficit. They didn't have enough people paying school taxes. So now Teachers loose their jobs because the Maxima got better gas mileage and cost less. Doesn't seem to make sense doe it? Now what is the used Maxima worth compared to it's counterpart? It's worth more. And 5 years later now, I wonder how those folks around Detroit are. I don't believe things are any much better.
So to keep up, many US companies have set up shop in other countries, and so we loose those people and their jobs as well. Sure the rest of the United States is surviving, struggling for many, and at the expense of all those people and jobs. I know the gas mileage on my F350 sucks but at least it says Ford and not Toyota. And that's coming from a guy who has been in two of the Ford (Model T) Family house. It's not the gigantic mansion you might imagine either. I was a little shocked to see they were moving from a house in Groose Pointe Farms that was smack dab on the greens of the Detroit Country Club, to a modest but well appointed 3 level home in the Bloomfield Hills area.
I had the unfortunate displeasure to work at Bushnell in CS, "customer service" for anyone who doesn't know by now. It was a thankless job, on top of which, ALL and I mean ALL but one product line (think it was Final Approach) was manufactured OUTSIDE the United States.
It says "Proud USA Company" at the bottom of their websites, but they don't make ANY of it here in the US except for one. It's Stoney Point if I remember correctly.
Simmons Optics, Millett (tactacal gear), Bollé Performance Eyewear, Browning Sports Optics, Bushnell, Bushnell Golf, Butler Creek,Final Approach (duck decoys and blinds), Hoppes (Gun Oil & cleaners. Your Grandpa would roll over in his grave if he knew where this was made now), Serengeti Sunglasses, Simmons Outdoor Corporation, Stoney Point (hiking gear), Tasco, Uncle Mikes & Uncle Mikes Law Enforcement
It's all made in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, and you guessed it,.......MEXICO!!!!
It's a pretty simple problem. Send your money out of the country and guess what, the counrty no longer has any of that money left to support itself. If you send enough of your support outside of your local vendors pocket long enough, it could feel like Pontiac Michigan there soon enough.
I realize the reasons are very different, but the results are the same. When vendors and manufacturers doors start to close up businesses, the people who enjoy them or their products will start to loose interest and stop coming to launches, sometimes along with some, or all of the friends that enjoy the hobby together with them. Every club has had the group of fliers that were once all hard core and great friends, then one of them burns out, and inevitably, one by one the rest of them stop showing up as often. No, not always, but I've seen it happen myself first hand. Start dropping membership fee's and see what happens. When there are'nt enough people to run things, maybe no more two day launches.
Clubs are no different. The vendors dissapear, then club members stop showing up as often and heck, if you only fly 1-2 times a year, people figure, why pay for membership dues? Then when they decide to get out of the hobby all together, guess what, more brand new used stuff for sale for 70% off!!! It's a domino effect, but nobody cares. They just want their cheap priced glass kits and motors.
Not to mention everyday life that happens. When I was in Argonia a few weekends ago, I was told that 1/3 of the CLUBS CORE MEMBERS have been unable to attend any more launches for various work or personal related reasons. Now the Kloudbusters put on a very serious hat when they set out to organize a launch and boy do they execute. They mean business too, but it takes a crew of guys to pull it off every year the way they do. To have 1/3 of the core working members disappear after seeing the way all those guys bust their @$$ during AirFest or LDRS has got to be an incredible blow for the entire club. Imaging if their vendor went out of business on top of that.
Sure the hobby would survive without Airfest or LDRS in Kansas, but the Rocket Pasture would never be the same without the guys who made it the "model" organization it is today. I'm sure they all know this.
We have enough problems in life without bringing even more on ourself. I'd rather build the infrastructure rather than tear it down for my own profit.
The hobby though small will survive, but there will be changes in both the vendors that are still around, as well as those friends you've come to know. If you don't believe me, take a drive through Pontiac Michigan. In 2008 when I worked at Spire Integrated in Troy MI, I took a drive though Pontiac to pick up a plasma TV. Before I left, the secretary asked me if I had been there yet. I said no. The look on here face said it all.
(Nutshell version) Americans stopped buying domestic cars. Foreign cars were better in quality and even cheaper in price. As a result, Pontiac lost over 200,000 manufacturing jobs. Ripple,....other business in town closed up.....ripple...... many people left town. Ripple.....so many people left that they had to close 9 of 20 public schools because of a deficit. They didn't have enough people paying school taxes. So now Teachers loose their jobs because the Maxima got better gas mileage and cost less. Doesn't seem to make sense doe it? Now what is the used Maxima worth compared to it's counterpart? It's worth more. And 5 years later now, I wonder how those folks around Detroit are. I don't believe things are any much better.
So to keep up, many US companies have set up shop in other countries, and so we loose those people and their jobs as well. Sure the rest of the United States is surviving, struggling for many, and at the expense of all those people and jobs. I know the gas mileage on my F350 sucks but at least it says Ford and not Toyota. And that's coming from a guy who has been in two of the Ford (Model T) Family house. It's not the gigantic mansion you might imagine either. I was a little shocked to see they were moving from a house in Groose Pointe Farms that was smack dab on the greens of the Detroit Country Club, to a modest but well appointed 3 level home in the Bloomfield Hills area.
I had the unfortunate displeasure to work at Bushnell in CS, "customer service" for anyone who doesn't know by now. It was a thankless job, on top of which, ALL and I mean ALL but one product line (think it was Final Approach) was manufactured OUTSIDE the United States.
It says "Proud USA Company" at the bottom of their websites, but they don't make ANY of it here in the US except for one. It's Stoney Point if I remember correctly.
Simmons Optics, Millett (tactacal gear), Bollé Performance Eyewear, Browning Sports Optics, Bushnell, Bushnell Golf, Butler Creek,Final Approach (duck decoys and blinds), Hoppes (Gun Oil & cleaners. Your Grandpa would roll over in his grave if he knew where this was made now), Serengeti Sunglasses, Simmons Outdoor Corporation, Stoney Point (hiking gear), Tasco, Uncle Mikes & Uncle Mikes Law Enforcement
It's all made in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, and you guessed it,.......MEXICO!!!!
It's a pretty simple problem. Send your money out of the country and guess what, the counrty no longer has any of that money left to support itself. If you send enough of your support outside of your local vendors pocket long enough, it could feel like Pontiac Michigan there soon enough.
I realize the reasons are very different, but the results are the same. When vendors and manufacturers doors start to close up businesses, the people who enjoy them or their products will start to loose interest and stop coming to launches, sometimes along with some, or all of the friends that enjoy the hobby together with them. Every club has had the group of fliers that were once all hard core and great friends, then one of them burns out, and inevitably, one by one the rest of them stop showing up as often. No, not always, but I've seen it happen myself first hand. Start dropping membership fee's and see what happens. When there are'nt enough people to run things, maybe no more two day launches.
Clubs are no different. The vendors dissapear, then club members stop showing up as often and heck, if you only fly 1-2 times a year, people figure, why pay for membership dues? Then when they decide to get out of the hobby all together, guess what, more brand new used stuff for sale for 70% off!!! It's a domino effect, but nobody cares. They just want their cheap priced glass kits and motors.
Not to mention everyday life that happens. When I was in Argonia a few weekends ago, I was told that 1/3 of the CLUBS CORE MEMBERS have been unable to attend any more launches for various work or personal related reasons. Now the Kloudbusters put on a very serious hat when they set out to organize a launch and boy do they execute. They mean business too, but it takes a crew of guys to pull it off every year the way they do. To have 1/3 of the core working members disappear after seeing the way all those guys bust their @$$ during AirFest or LDRS has got to be an incredible blow for the entire club. Imaging if their vendor went out of business on top of that.
Sure the hobby would survive without Airfest or LDRS in Kansas, but the Rocket Pasture would never be the same without the guys who made it the "model" organization it is today. I'm sure they all know this.
We have enough problems in life without bringing even more on ourself. I'd rather build the infrastructure rather than tear it down for my own profit.
Loki Research
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Beezwax said:
My point is, the MSRP has gone up, but 3-4 times a year, there is an endless supply at 30-45% off MSRP, lower than what you could buy them for 10 years ago, and I don't ever remember seeing anything ever 20% off except for maybe Dr.Rockets 98mm hardware on sale for a month every Christmas. The majority of people see these lowball sales prices and are influenced in some way by this, even if they are not the ones buying.
As for larger motors not raising as much in price.....it's simple.
You have to pay more for the increased labor it costs to produce 24-38mm motors. It takes more time to process, cut and bag all the parts for smaller motors than it does large ones. You have to pay someone for that time to bag these little motors, or buy an expensive machine to do it more quickly for you. How much has minimum wage increased in the last 10 years? There is the increase.
Beezwax said:
You are an exception to the rule that I am seeing and hearing about everywhere and I applaud you for supporting your local vendor, but are you really paying him more than you need too, or are you simply paying MSRP? Do you see how you have become affected by these low prices? You still do business with your local vendor but you feel you are paying more than you need to.
As for these big spending sprees being a luxury for the rich, I somewhat disagree. Many of these "rich" people are in business for themselves as are able to see this for what it really is. Choosing not to participate and instead, supporting their local vendor, does not impact the "rich" in the pocket book the same as a college kid who needs the rest of his spendings for gas money home and back. The rich guy can "afford" to pass these deals up. This type of sales technique targets the compulsive spender, the bargain hunter, the unknowing, unsuspecting, and those who CAN NOT afford to miss the deal of the century.
Rcktnut said:
Thank you, I respect your honesty. How many times a year do you have this opportunity?
Well Scott I feel your pain as regards the loss of manufacturing and industry in our country. It's sad but entirely understandable, and you can't really cry foul when someone buys a foreign car that is by your own admission better in quality and cheaper in price. Are they supposed to spend more for less, buy domestic just out of some sense of loyalty? Sure, some will (a very minority) but as I mentioned before those who are able and willing to spend more than they have to for something, that's a position of luxury that most folks aren't in. It's unrealistic to expect otherwise and bemoaning the situation just lacks insight and sympathy. If you can't change the rules of the game then you've got to beat them at their own game. If you can't beat them, you've got to change games.
EDIT: Scott I was typing this during your last post, so we are leap-frogging a bit and I didn't read it until after... perhaps I am being influenced by periodic fire sales, but I equate what I "need" or "have" to pay for something to whatever the lowest available price is. That is the amount that I must pay in order to own it. It is quite logical to pay the lowest price you can for something, that's just good economics. If I am willing to pay a more than the lowest price I can find then there is certainly an ulterior reason (such as to support a local business), and being able to make such a choice is a privileged position. You have to cross a definite financial threshold before such things are even a consideration.
EDIT: Scott I was typing this during your last post, so we are leap-frogging a bit and I didn't read it until after... perhaps I am being influenced by periodic fire sales, but I equate what I "need" or "have" to pay for something to whatever the lowest available price is. That is the amount that I must pay in order to own it. It is quite logical to pay the lowest price you can for something, that's just good economics. If I am willing to pay a more than the lowest price I can find then there is certainly an ulterior reason (such as to support a local business), and being able to make such a choice is a privileged position. You have to cross a definite financial threshold before such things are even a consideration.
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I have been on the fence about posting in this for a while, and just haven't really had the time(too busy looking for another job). I want to give my thoughts on this as well.
I was a user in the hobby before I became a vendor. I completely understand shopping around and getting the best bang for your buck. I used to do it as well. Since I became a vendor, I have seen the other side of the coin. I have done the long nights updating prices because they went up a few dollars. I did the hours of training for hazmat shipping, I have dealt with the shipments getting returned because they ripped the paperwork, or lost my account info. I have spent hours out doing inventory, laid awake wondering if I will be able to pay for that $2000 in motors I bought for inventory before the interest rate kills me.
When I worked in fast-food (Wendy’s) one of the things they taught was profit is not a dirty word, greed is. Boy is that ever true. I recently bought QuickBooks to better track my sales at launches. WOW! How eye opening. I gave a 15% discount on a couple motors at a launch, and then looked at the money I didn’t collect. That one sale, one order that I discounted, left $45 not collected. That is half a tank of gas. When I got home from that launch, I had driven over 1000 miles, and ended up making $0 for 3 days of work. I broke even. How do I make the payment on my CC for those motors I sold? I can't.
I have been watching people on this forum, and talking to others, and I have asked about why they didn't buy anything from me. Most common answers are-"I am saving my money for (blank) black Friday sale as they normally offer great deals on reloads" or "Your prices are too high as I can buy that load from blank for $20-30 less." During one of these sales, I looked as a dealer sold many reloads at below the dealer cost that anyone is supposed to be offered. How can that be? How can anyone go & give away motors at 5% below the price they can buy them at? These were not lost leaders either. The point I am trying to make is that these deep price cutting sales are hurting everyone. They hurt small dealers like myself as well as others who are trying to make ends-meet, they hurt the dealer that is doing it, and they will eventually hurt you as a flyer. At this rate, one day the small guy trying to support you at your field will go out of business. Is that when you will face the reality that you are still "paying the price" for your motors? You will be, but in a way different that what you had thought.
I can't be the only small vendor out there showing up at a launch trying to support the local clubs. I feel like the big discounting dealers are trying to put all of us small guys out of business. I feel like some people don't want to play nice and share the sand box, because they know Mom & Dad won't do anything about it.
I was a user in the hobby before I became a vendor. I completely understand shopping around and getting the best bang for your buck. I used to do it as well. Since I became a vendor, I have seen the other side of the coin. I have done the long nights updating prices because they went up a few dollars. I did the hours of training for hazmat shipping, I have dealt with the shipments getting returned because they ripped the paperwork, or lost my account info. I have spent hours out doing inventory, laid awake wondering if I will be able to pay for that $2000 in motors I bought for inventory before the interest rate kills me.
When I worked in fast-food (Wendy’s) one of the things they taught was profit is not a dirty word, greed is. Boy is that ever true. I recently bought QuickBooks to better track my sales at launches. WOW! How eye opening. I gave a 15% discount on a couple motors at a launch, and then looked at the money I didn’t collect. That one sale, one order that I discounted, left $45 not collected. That is half a tank of gas. When I got home from that launch, I had driven over 1000 miles, and ended up making $0 for 3 days of work. I broke even. How do I make the payment on my CC for those motors I sold? I can't.
I have been watching people on this forum, and talking to others, and I have asked about why they didn't buy anything from me. Most common answers are-"I am saving my money for (blank) black Friday sale as they normally offer great deals on reloads" or "Your prices are too high as I can buy that load from blank for $20-30 less." During one of these sales, I looked as a dealer sold many reloads at below the dealer cost that anyone is supposed to be offered. How can that be? How can anyone go & give away motors at 5% below the price they can buy them at? These were not lost leaders either. The point I am trying to make is that these deep price cutting sales are hurting everyone. They hurt small dealers like myself as well as others who are trying to make ends-meet, they hurt the dealer that is doing it, and they will eventually hurt you as a flyer. At this rate, one day the small guy trying to support you at your field will go out of business. Is that when you will face the reality that you are still "paying the price" for your motors? You will be, but in a way different that what you had thought.
I can't be the only small vendor out there showing up at a launch trying to support the local clubs. I feel like the big discounting dealers are trying to put all of us small guys out of business. I feel like some people don't want to play nice and share the sand box, because they know Mom & Dad won't do anything about it.
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...and this is why one of the most important things I think people need to do is support the dealers who come to their launches. Even if you don't buy everything from them, buy some things.
We have two dealers who come to our field, and every year I spend money with them. Our club wants them to continue to come to our field, on a regular basis, and a lot of us spend money with them.
-Kevin
We have two dealers who come to our field, and every year I spend money with them. Our club wants them to continue to come to our field, on a regular basis, and a lot of us spend money with them.
-Kevin
UncleVanya
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I keep looking for the LIKE button!
CarVac
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I always try to support field vendors. Quite often they make dealing with warranties easier, and they'll be there when you left that thing you really needed back at home.
I would think that I am not alone in this, but as a rule I have to save to buy one or 2 motors. They are purchased online when a sale is on (the shipping makes them 'full price' on my end) or from a vendor at a launch. A business that doesn't make money isn't a business, it's a black hole which the proprietor will eventually get sucked into, never to be seen again. When there is a great sale, utilize it, but save some of that cash for the local guy.....
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Yup! Or when you thought you had the right size parachute, but don't.....
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