Lpr , but a heads up!

[Daddyisabar]

Maybe everyone should make their own Kevlar motor mount tubes. (Of course, no one should ever make their own motors or they will be taken away.) Do they blow out the nozzles or the front end, too?

If you make your own EXPOLSIVE A to F powered, black powder, kiddie toy motors, an unmarked black SUV will pull up, agents with sunglasses wearing blue jackets with gold letters on their back, will get out and haul you away. Never to be seen again! Black powder is a dangerous explosive. Motors must be certified! Only one company can do it now. YES! Keep it that way.

Join Tripoli, get your Level 2, get a big mixer and homebrew up an O composite motor with the guys from the club and some beers. YES! AP IS NOT AN EXPLOSIVE! Keep it that way!

 

[rsbhunter]

Alot of the old sayings are really based in truth, there are only two certainties in life, death and taxes...rsbhunter

 

[lakeroadster]

That skillet on top of my head , gonna leave a mark...not that I don't deserve it!!!!

In no way was my comment aimed at you... no excuses for Estes though. Selling an inferior product is really beneath them.​

 

[rsbhunter]

In no way was my comment aimed at you... no excuses for Estes though. Selling an inferior product is really beneath them.​

I loved it!!! I , in no way took offense...I laughed actually. I can, and have, made some of the most "stooopidest" , boneheaded moves in my life. The day I can't laugh at myself, I'll run for politics...rsbhunter

 

[Daddyisabar]

My recent catos have been E12 0, D12 3. I have seen D12 5 cato too. In the olden days (2007 to 2016) it was like two out of a thousand D12s I launched. Always store bought and hobby room stored. E9, maybe two out of every 100. Then things got a little worse maybe six years ago. Then recently failure rates are way up at the clubs i go to.

When they first came out I did not have an E12 failure. They had fixed all the E9 troubles... right? Not so fast and now creeping into the Mighty Ds.

 

[lr64]

If you make your own EXPOLSIVE A to F powered, black powder, kiddie toy motors, an unmarked black SUV will pull up, agents with sunglasses wearing blue jackets with gold letters on their back, will get out and haul you away. Never to be seen again! Black powder is a dangerous explosive. Motors must be certified! Only one company can do it now. YES! Keep it that way.

Join Tripoli, get your Level 2, get a big mixer and homebrew up an O composite motor with the guys from the club and some beers. YES! AP IS NOT AN EXPLOSIVE! Keep it that way!

Did I write "black powder"? I only want that for Jetex fuses.

 

[gldknght]

Lots of Bad Batches have come out over the past few years. Things have changed. Multiple problems from supply chain to manufacture to distribution to use. How to solve it? No one knows.

Add to that how much their customer service has gone down the toilet drain. At this point, I can't find a valid excuse for buying anything with the Estes name on it.

 

[lakeroadster]

Add to that how much their customer service has gone down the toilet drain. At this point, I can't find a valid excuse for buying anything with the Estes name on it.

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

 

[aerostadt]

I have only launched my N-1 twice and it has been awhile. However, both times it was a cluster of 5 D12's and worked fine both times.

 

[Daddyisabar]

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

The answer is to not build silly oddroc D12 or E12 clusters with canted tractors up front and such. Build only safe and sound, traditional 3-4FNC with BIG, RELIABLE motors that don't need a complex BP clusters. Ditch the cheapo Estes exploders and only use non clustered composites.

Even some of the 18mm composites cluster ok, but only crazy folks do that. Bigger, certified composites all the way! More excitement the bigger and more expensive your rocket gets. No need to cluster smaller motors when one big one will do!

LPR should never be heads up. No scary toy propellant, bad for the hobby. Only 100% kid tested, mother approved safety for the little rack or pad in the park.

Plenty of machismo to be had by dad out at the big boy racks. THAT'S MY OPINION AND I AM STICKING TO IT FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT 30 SECONDS!

 

[Daddyisabar]

I have only launched my N-1 twice and it has been awhile. However, both times it was a cluster of 5 D12's and worked fine both times.

And then something super cool like this gets posted and THUD! I fall off the good boy, single composite motor 3-4FNC band wagon. TRF is such a bad influence on my inner good boy!

 

[SolarYellow]

D16s are Black Jack and should cluster decently.

 

[Capt. Eric]

I just wish someone would tell us what the cause of all these CATO's are. Lots of theories out there, including my own not so correct one, but none have been proven (that I am aware of). I'm guessing that someone at Estes knows, but why not tell us? Not to mention, let's fix the problem. I'd pay a little more if they were more reliable.

 

[rsbhunter]

I agree, I understand the economics of BP. A paper tube can be made however long, cut into 2.75" lengths, some clay, etc. Composites have (I think) injection molded cases, compounds to be mixed, nozzles glued in? But, with a company as big as Estes, they must have engineers that can come up with a reason this happens...but, watch some of the big rockets that never get off the pad, I mean the space shot rockets...so, we keep going...rsbhunter

 

[lakeroadster]

I agree, I understand the economics of BP. A paper tube can be made however long, cut into 2.75" lengths, some clay, etc. Composites have (I think) injection molded cases, compounds to be mixed, nozzles glued in? But, with a company as big as Estes, they must have engineers that can come up with a reason this happens...but, watch some of the big rockets that never get off the pad, I mean the space shot rockets...so, we keep going...rsbhunter

It's not "Engineers", it's the manufacturing process. They've built millions of BP motors... something has changed.​

 

[mitchboese]

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

 

[mitchboese]

Not necessarily.

 

[Swany]

It's not "Engineers", it's the manufacturing process. They've built millions of BP motors... something has changed.​

How do you know something has changed in the manufacturing process?

 

[Art Upton]

Honestly at this point everybody's mileage varies. I fly alot of E12s with no problems so far. I also flew and loved the late lamented E9s which were discontinued. No one knows what tomorrow will bring. Definitely try Quest motors 'cause Quest motors are cool.

[edit] I know, I just jinxed myself with that E12 comment.

Quest E26s that are not the newest version have some Cuffing issues reported here. Use the E35

 

[mitchboese]

Not necessarily.

 

[Art Upton]

Maybe everyone should make their own Kevlar motor mount tubes. (Of course, no one should ever make their own motors or they will be taken away.) Do they blow out the nozzles or the front end, too?

Making your own AP motors CATO can more when you first start out

 

[lakeroadster]

How do you know something has changed in the manufacturing process?

History. That's been the problem in the past when cato's arise on time tested old school BP motors.​

​

 

[Art Upton]

How do you know something has changed in the manufacturing process?

On the E12a, something changed in the machine process. Perhaps something worn out. Multiple Presses are done from what I heard Estes tell us on that [Bill?] They fixed that and it got better but now things are back again.

 

[Pem Tech]

If you would, is it all of the E12's, because the D12's seem to be 98% engines with the 3 second delay (D12-3). I was planning on trying the E's next....or, should I go with Quest motors? Thanks for any help...rsbhunter

What samb said:
Yesterday at 1:52 PM
"Honestly at this point everybody's mileage varies. I fly alot of E12s with no problems so far. I also flew and loved the late lamented E9s which were discontinued. No one knows what tomorrow will bring. Definitely try Quest motors 'cause Quest motors are cool.

[edit] I know, I just jinxed myself with that E12 comment. "

My advice, whatever BP motors you buy, be sure to prevent heat cycling.

 

[4regt4]

A couple of conjectures, and just that. Not suggesting they are facts:

1. Seems with the D12s at least, if not other motors, more problems are showing up with 2023 date codes.

2. Could this coincide with Estes using their own in-house BP, since the restart of Goex?

Hans.

Edit: A friend works in a hospital, and X-rayed some D12s. He found the quantity of ejection BP varied considerably, and also the thickness of the clay cap.

 

[Alan15578]

Years ago after my father died I took my mom to NARAM for a mother-son trip, she had some interesting observations.

Remembering the good times when my parents stopped at Estes HQ back in '78 and I got the new release Star Wars rockets. Good vacation to Penrose...and the comparatively boring Royal Gorge.

I remember a trip I planned with my family to NARAM 14. We had four drivers (I had a learners permit.) and planned to mostly drive night and day, while taking in a few quick scenic stops. I had planned to go past Estes Ind., at the wrong time, but I thought I might snap a photo from the gate. We went past Royal Gorge, still there, did not stop, seen it before. Totally missed the Estes plant. Later I woke in the car in a panic; we were not moving. An accident? No, my father just pulled off the road to sleep and had not woken up the next driver. This threw my schedule off. We did drive through Yellowstone, but not much time to appreciate it. Should we wait 45 minutes to see Old Faithful blow? At NARAM 14 in Seattle, I got a car ride from Vern Estes, and won my first NARAM event trophies.

 

[gldknght]

What is an alternative to D12's? And don't say composite motors, 'cause they don't cluster very well.​

​

The answer, I fear, is nothing.​

Actually, yes, composite motors. Given the right preparation, they cluster just fine. I have a Loc Tri-star that has flown several times on a triple composite cluster. The secret to lighting composite clusters is a power supply with plenty of amps. I use the battery in my car. With the engine running. Soldering your igniter leads together is also good practice.

 

[bad_idea]

something has changed.​

On the E12a, something changed in the machine process.

If recent Estes motors really are blowing up more than before, I suspect this is the answer:

Could this coincide with Estes using their own in-house BP, since the restart of Goex?

There have been reports from black powder shooters that new Goex is a little different from old Goex.

 

[lr64]

Making your own AP motors CATO can more when you first start out

Even compared to D12s? Of course AP motors are not the only alternative. Some sugar and potassium nitrate, epoxy and potassium nitrate, etc. I am not sure making significant amounts of BP is wise, though.

Actually, yes, composite motors. Given the right preparation, they cluster just fine. I have a Loc Tri-star that has flown several times on a triple composite cluster. The secret to lighting composite clusters is a power supply with plenty of amps. I use the battery in my car. With the engine running. Soldering your igniter leads together is also good practice.

Ever try carbon fiber tow as a bridge wire? It can take oodles of current if you can supply it, and you only need very short lengths. Cured uni composite is a bit easier, though I suspect if you just used epoxy or CA on tow and let it set, that would also be easier. Maybe epoxy with KNO3 mixed in? Carbon fibers may not bend very well, so wrapping the wire around it is probably better than wrapping the carbon around the wire. I've seen the result of an accident where carbon fiber composite fell across lines carrying tens of thousands of volts. After the awful hum and the mushroom cloud, much of the epoxy had disappeared, but not the carbon. Not to worry, no one was harmed. And no, it wasn't during Desert Storm.

 

[lr64]

It's not "Engineers", it's the manufacturing process. They've built millions of BP motors... something has changed.​

Actually, figuring out such problems is within a manufacturing engineer's job description. I've assisted one of those guys. Sometimes, we'd just be going to vendors our company purchased from to fix problems that came up after they laid off the people who knew what they were doing.

How do you know something has changed in the manufacturing process?

Because the motors aren't as reliable as in the past. Unless it's something about storage or shipping, I suppose. It may not be a change that was done on purpose. Might be something getting out of adjustment.