Words Can't Express My Disappointment

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I'd like to know exactly what is required for man-rating a rocket. Does it involve extra testing? Or is redesigning required to accommodate added redundancy? Let's hear from the experts. Ted
 
I would like to point out three things.
1) Presidential policy lasts only as long as the president that forms it and the sitting president has only two years left that he can bank on for sure.
2) Though the president leads the country, Congress runs it. Of the people By the people unless the people give it up.
3) Even if the program is shut down (short or long term) the hardware thus developed and data thus gathered will not suddenly dissapear. Have a little faith in the course of human developement.

Hmmm... not COMPLETELY accurate...

1) Policy DOES tend to outlive the president that formed it, even if it only means that the incoming president has to expend political capital/energy to create inertia for changes to that policy, and dealing with the fallout/ramifications that the old policy created, which ties in with what else I'm about to say.

2) Congress will have it's say, and it will be far more politicized and rancous than most will assume, especially with the upcoming election (nobody wants folks losing jobs in THEIR district, because folks that lose their jobs are not as likely to vote for an incumbent, espeically if they see that incumbent as being somehow responsible for their job loss) and in light of the upcoming layoffs at NASA and the contractors as the Shuttle Program winds down.

3) MOST importantly and germaine to the discussion at hand, correct, that the information and hardware still exists and wouldn't disappear, HOWEVER, a shutdown or significant delay would make things MUCH MUCH harder, if nigh impossible, to get going again. There are HUGE costs to maintaining capabilities, infrastructure, tooling, and especially SKILLS (in the form of skilled, experienced workers) during a shutdown or significant delays. The decision to shutdown the shuttle program years ago (2005 IIRC) means that a LOT of contracts and capabilities have been let go, ended, or otherwise gone away. That is one reason why a shuttle extension is virtually a non-starter at this point-- spare parts were ordered for the anticipated number of remaining flights, and then the contracts were terminated to save costs. Many of the shuttle parts are "one-offs", certainly NOT off-the-shelf, and the single source vendors no longer have the capability of producing more. Some shuttle parts, especially electronics, were BADLY outdated (still 70's technology) being produced by small vendors or even large companies, which were maintaining antiquated production capabilities no longer used for any other product EXCEPT that particular shuttle component, which is VERY expensive to do (and that expense is reflected in the cost of the component to the shuttle program) and once those spares were delivered and the contract terminated, that machinery and capability to produce more was scrapped, since it was no longer needed. Even in cases where such capability was put in storage, there are significant costs to "pulling it out of mothballs" and getting it going again-- which would drive costs for the parts they would make MUCH MUCH higher. Again, you can't just go to Autozone and get the parts you need-- these are all custom one-off specially made parts and once the vendor or his capability is gone, it's pretty much gone for good. You also can't just "plug in" an updated part or even design a new one-- not without a VERY expensive and TIME CONSUMING recertification program to ensure that the new part (say using NEW, MODERN electronics) will "play nice" with all the other parts it has to work with, and will perform with absolute reliability and safety... so not only do you have to spend the HUGE $$$ to design and build a new part and create the capability to create more copies of it, but then you have to spend a TON of $$$ and time requalifying that part for manned spaceflight when integrated into the vehicle systems. WAY, WAY EXPENSIVE.

That was a MAJOR tipoff during the campaign, when Obama said he would prefer to "put Constellation on hold for FIVE YEARS and reinvest that money into education". A five-year hold is tantamount to cancellation, because it would cost probably a billion bucks a year just to keep the lights on, everything safely in storage and upkeep, and safely guarded while waiting for the day when the program would resume. You'd have to pay to put everything INTO storage, upkeep of it to prevent it from rusting/rotting down while in storage, and then pay to take it OUT of storage and set it all up to produce parts for the program AGAIN when your "hold" was over... It's not as simple as 'turning the lights off when you leave' for five years and coming back and turning them on again when it's time to start again. Those costs are sunk and essentially wasted. Also, there are SO many parts coming from OUTSIDE VENDORS, and who's going to pay THEIR costs for shutdown, mothballing, storage, setup, and restarting production again?? They CERTAINLY aren't going to do that for free! Cancel the contracts, and the company is going to do what's best for them, which in many cases, is tossing old outdated machinery which was producing the one-off parts which are no longer needed (or paid for) and making room for new capabilities to produce modern components for other uses (airliners, military, commercial, consumer, whatever). Turn those liabilities into paying assets, which stuff in storage DOES NOT DO (unless PAID to store it, so how does that save money again?)

Remember, we still have the "blueprints" to make F-1 engines, and actually Pratt and Whitney/Rocketdyne said they COULD restart production on a "new" F-1 engine for $500 million (probably closer to a billion today, but the point is made). The TOOLING is long gone, and a lot of the processes and materials used to make the originals are long gone, no longer used, antiquated, or replaced by newer/better/cheaper materials or processes, and would have to be re-engineered and reintegrated into the production of the final product. That's why re-creating the J-2S and upgrading it to a J-2X is proving to be such a long-term and expensive program.... we know how to make those too, but RECREATING THE ABILITY to make them, with modern materials and processes, is the EXPENSIVE part...

Anyway, that's just something to consider in all this... There are upsides and downsides most folks never think about in some of these seemingly 'simple' decisions... OL JR :)
 
I agree and I'd like most of NASA's budget dedicated to unmanned probes and landers which provide far more value on the dollar than manned missions while developing technologies like robotics and AI that are highly useful here on Earth, too.

AMEN and amen!!!! TOTALLY agree...

We need to be doing the underlying SCIENCE to really know what we're doing and where to go when we DO decide to do manned exploration, be it on the Moon OR Mars... Even NEO's...

Ok, here's the deal... We have 6 Apollo landing sites visited in the 70's, with a half dozen or so other unmanned Surveyor and Luna/Lunakhod sites visited by landers in the same time frame. This on a body with a surface area equal to every land mass on Earth combined. Yes, we've sent orbiters and mapped every detail FROM ORBIT and crashed a few things in here and there, done some orbital resource remote sensing, etc... in more modern times. BUT where are the rovers to go down and actually dig and SEE if there is actually ice here or there, or CONFIRM that this place or that place is actually worth the effort of manned landing/exploration or if that mission would be better sent elsewhere?? Drop a dozen probes at random across Earth's land surface and tell me you'd ever even know about things like Angel Falls, the Grand Canyon, the actual nature/makeup of the Amazon, the conditions in the valleys of the Himalayas, etc... Sure you can see those things from orbit and make maps showing them, but what's to say that the REAL "gold mine" of science return isn't just over the hill (or 2-3 hills over) from where you land, and you'll never know it because you didn't send a rover there to dig around and figure out you should have landed 3 hills over when your manned mission came??

Even Mars-- yeah, we've sent ever-better and more capable orbiters there since the 70's, and rightfully so... we have better maps and imaging than we've EVER had before, and it keeps getting better all the time. We've sent (functioning) landers to the North Polar region, two plains on opposite sides of the planet, and we've sent three rovers to three different areas on opposite sides of the planet. We've mapped Valles Marineris and the highlands and the mountains FROM ORBIT... but we've not sent any rovers to most of these places to see where the efforts/risks of a manned landing would really be the best place to perform such a landing. We should have a few DOZEN rovers on Mars doing the groundwork so we 'know where we're going' before we spend the time and money and take the risks going there... if nothing else to know if it's "safe" or not, and when we get there, if it's even worth the trip. We're not really doing that, not the way (to the extent) it SHOULD be done.

True, in Apollo, we just didn't have the time or technology to do that. Surveyor proved we could land without sinking into 50 foot deep dust never to be seen again, so "suck it up and let's go-- time's a-wastin'!" But there's NO REASON to do a new program using that paradigm...

JMHO!! OL JR :)
 
We have done that before! The Mercury and Gemini capsules were launched on converted missiles.


Yeah, and we should be doing it again (and hopefully WILL!).

Why waste BILLIONS and YEARS creating an expensive and less-capable launcher which can't even match the performance and capabilities of existing systems which are underutilized and could be easily modified to do the job better than the existing choice for less money???

That's what has REALLY killed the Ares rockets-- they've already spent MORE than they were originally projected to cost to develop in the first place, and they haven't even got a completed design ready, let alone actually made the parts and seen that they work, and put them all together into a working prototype... (Ares I-X included since it had NO actual Ares-I flight hardware for the finished product aboard) Add to that the the schedule for Ares I/ Orion has already slipped from 2012 when it was proposed, to 2014 when it was approved, to 2016 at virtually NO CONFIDENCE LEVEL to 2017 IOC at the EARLIEST most likely... That's a LONG TIME TO WAIT and a lot of money for something that was supposed to be "safer, simpler, and SOONER"... (yeah, right!)

This mess has been headed for a cliff for a long time... hopefully they'll be able to salvage something out of this mess and preserve the capability for us to do BEO missions in the future...

OL JR :)
 
I'd like to know exactly what is required for man-rating a rocket. Does it involve extra testing? Or is redesigning required to accommodate added redundancy? Let's hear from the experts. Ted

Whoa... you're wading in where angels fear to tread... LOL:)

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I've been reading up on this for over 4 years on nasaspaceflight.com, which I HIGHLY recommend (REAL rocket scientists hang out there and literally you can learn more there than you ever dreamed... I know I have!) so here's what I've learned...

Manrating involves, first of all, designing everything to at least a 1.4 "fundamental of safety" (safety level) in the rocket... in other words, everything should be able to tolerate at least 40% over the "normal, expected" loads encountered without failing, IE tanks should be able to take 40% more than the expected pressure without rupturing, etc. Manrating also involves monitoring the 'health' and performance of various components, avionics, the rocket engine turbopumps, thrust, TVC, etc. and have the capability of safe shut down (for liquid engines anyway) and automatic abort if necessary. The trajectory has to stay outside of 'black zones' which would impose loads or conditions which would make an abort impossible or extremely risky to a crew of being successfully performed.

There are a TON of other factors and requirements that play into all this, and I won't pretend to go into it, but if you're REALLY interested there ARE a lot of resources in the forums on nasaspaceflight.com that are available. There's also the L2 forum (for a monthly fee) where you can look at the ACTUAL TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS of the space program, requirements, capabilities, studies, etc...

Here's the deal... Prior to Columbia, the "planned" shuttle replacement (eventually maybe someday-- kinda like X-33, X-38, NASP, etc.) was supposed to be the "OSP" (Orbital Space Plane) which was sort of a winged lifting body used to ferry astronauts to space and maybe small cargo. OSP was supposed to launch on an EELV (Delta IV, Atlas V) which were then deemed capable of being SAFE ENOUGH FOR A MANNED LAUNCHER (with mods). After Columbia demonstrated the need for shuttle retirement and the CEV proposals started to be floated for a shuttle follow on (back when the arguments between a small spaceplane (ala OSP), capsule, biconic, orbital module/capsule (soyuz-like) design, etc. were being hashed out) NASA Administrator O'Keefe and Admiral Steidle's plans were to use EELV to launch the CEV, and then follow on with an EELV Phase II/III heavy lift vehicle (HLV) for cargo launches (moon landers, habs, fuel depots, Mars trans-habs, tankers, etc). Shuttle would be flown out and then shut down.

Now, the thing is, NASA learned that one of the weaknesses that Apollo suffered was that it's production/use was focussed in only a few areas, IE California, Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, Texas, and a few others, which meant that it's POLITICAL SUPPORT in Congress wasn't widespread enough to fend off cancellation once the moon landing was accomplished, especially for such a big, highly visible, and expensive program. When NASA got the shuttle program, they decided not to repeat that mistake again, so they made the STS program as "wide-spread" as possible to garner the maximum amount of political support (who can vote against shuttle if it means that the vendor in their district will be shut down, and local jobs back home will be lost-- why they're likely not to re-elect the guy!) and this widespread support served shuttle pretty well through a lot of storms here and there... but it's also a double edged sword-- when it became apparent that shuttle needed replacing, it ALSO meant that, if STS were shut down, those politicians would face the wrath of an angry electorate back home who lost their jobs when shuttle was shut down. SO, there was ENORMOUS political pressure to replace shuttle with something that would keep those jobs *more or less* in place and uninterrupted to the extent possible... thus "shuttle derived" was born-- SDLV. O'Keefe and Steidle were out, EELV was out, and SDLV was in, along with Mike Griffin and his cohorts who had thier own ideas of SDLV, primarily a proposal called "the Stick" which became Ares I. To quell the substantial fight that the EELV proponents were putting up and make SDLV a 'shoo-in', the decision was made to make CEV (Orion) a 5.5 meter capsule-- "too big" to fit on an EELV. There was also a big "FUD" campaign to smear EELV's as "unsafe" due to blackzones (which could be overcome by a trajectory change, and was, but the red herring remained), that EELV would require a new expensive upper stage development and qualification program (like Ares didn't... in fact Ares requires TWO-- one for Ares I and another for Ares V EDS) and that it would cost MORE to manrate EELV than Ares I would cost to develop (patently rediculous). The ESAS study was done to "confirm" the architecture based on a so called "one and a half" launch solution was "best", which relied on the launch of a small crew launcher, followed by the launch of a cargo rocket carrying the hardware needed. The small size/capability of the crew launcher would require a HUGE cargo rocket to carry all the needed mission hardware, fuel, consumables, equipment, etc. Thus was born Ares V. Other SDLV advocates said it was the wrong choice-- designing, building, and operating TWO different rockets, one small and one gigantic, launching TWO times per mission, would be FAR more expensive than designing ONE "medium sized" SDLV that could be built as identical units, launched TWICE for each mission, one for crew and some cargo, the other for only cargo, would be much cheaper. As Ares I strayed further and further from it's initial ESAS design, requiring a new first stage SRB, new upperstage engine, and still was having serious underperformance issues, it grew more and more different from the shuttle derived components from which is was supposed to be built, and as Orion got heavier and Ares I required more equipment be installed for vibration mitigation, among other things, more and more weight and capabilities were being required of Ares V, making it grow more and more huge to make up for Ares I inadequacy. This caused it to grow SO huge that it had virtually NOTHING in common with shuttle, from which it was supposedly derived. It also got to be less and less compatible with it's brother Ares I, which would drive costs through the roof.

Now here we are five years and 9 billion dollars later, and guess what?? Ares I and V ARE too expensive, are too far out to save the shuttle workforce from massive layoffs, EELV is cheaper and CAN be made to work safely, and developing and launching a SINGLE SDLV rocket twice for exploration missions IS cheaper and better than the "little and big" Ares solution... Just what everybody but Griffin and his cadre were saying all along... now that STS is winding down and the pink slips are fixing to go out, with an unpopular president and his party facing a drubbing in the upcoming elections, there is a LOT of pressure to prevent those layoffs, and with the budget getting creamed (and soon the country by inflation) the pressure is on for a more affordable, more quickly available SDLV solution, and for commercial interests to take up ISS deliveries... SDLV in SOME flavor is required to prevent the job losses, and commercial is the best bet for quick results to close the gap.

THAT's why we are where we are... OL JR :)
 
I'd like to know exactly what is required for man-rating a rocket. Does it involve extra testing? Or is redesigning required to accommodate added redundancy? Let's hear from the experts. Ted
Redundancy is the main concern. The Aerospace report describes in some detail what has to be done.

Bob
 
Saturn V, Saturn 1b, Dyna Soar, MOL.........
The Saturns did their job and fulfilled their missions. In the early 70's. They are obsolete by todays standards.

Dyna Soar, MOL and other programs never got off the ground. The were DoD programs and early on the US decided to have a single civilian manned space program....

Remember, we still have the "blueprints" to make F-1 engines, and actually Pratt and Whitney/Rocketdyne said they COULD restart production on a "new" F-1 engine for $500 million (probably closer to a billion today, but the point is made). The TOOLING is long gone, and a lot of the processes and materials used to make the originals are long gone, no longer used, antiquated, or replaced by newer/better/cheaper materials or processes, and would have to be re-engineered and reintegrated into the production of the final product. That's why re-creating the J-2S and upgrading it to a J-2X is proving to be such a long-term and expensive program.... we know how to make those too, but RECREATING THE ABILITY to make them, with modern materials and processes, is the EXPENSIVE part...

Anyway, that's just something to consider in all this... There are upsides and downsides most folks never think about in some of these seemingly 'simple' decisions... OL JR :)
Large American liquid rocket motor development basically disappeared after the 60's but the Russians kept going and build some very good engines.

We could restart production the now obsolete F-1 engine at a rediculiously high cost, or we could simple buy state of the art RD-172 engines directly from the manufacturer. While politically this will never happen, we can do what we have done with other modern Russian liquids, have Rocketyne purchase the rigjhts and build "American" motors here. Not as cheap but still a better and more cost effective solution than building a 50 year old design.

Bob
 
Yes, quite true and I didn't mean to imply otherwise; I was simply using the F-1 to make a point.

On a broader view, I would say that the US made a fundamental mistake in not continuing with some form of rocket engine research/ demonstrator program. The SSME was the last MAJOR engine design in the US (and I suppose the RS-68, loosely based on the idea of a cheap, disposable SSME type engine, with significant departures that compromise certain aspects of it's performance). Had we not completely abandoned kerelox engine production, we would be in a FAR better position today than we find ourselves. Heck, even if we had meaningfully persued hydrolox engine development/ demonstration and finished programs like RL-60 we would be in a much stronger position... engine development is the lion's share of any new rocket program's expense-- if you have the engine designed, produced, and tested, (available) you've already won half the battle on any new rocket development program.

Instead we're having to design J-2X basically from the ground up, and have very little choice for 'off the shelf' solutions. Even RS-68 is not well suited for the task at hand (high-ISP, high thrust regeneratively cooled core engine) and will require SUBSTANTIAL redesign to work. SSME is expensive, but is better suited, and will require some development if we want to make it into a cheaper throwaway version.

Does no good to fix the barn door after the horses are gone... LOL:) OL JR :)
 
The SSME was the last MAJOR engine design in the US (and I suppose the RS-68, loosely based on the idea of a cheap, disposable SSME type engine, with significant departures that compromise certain aspects of it's performance).

Don't forget about IPD, MB-XX, Merlin 1A, 1B, 1C, and Block 2, RS-84 (since canceled), and others that I'm probably forgetting. Yes, it's quiet out there right now. But not completely quiet :cyclops: (Notably with IPD... that was a coooool engine!)

(There is more LOX/Kero development work beginning again in the wings, I hear, politically motivated by the RD-172/RD-180 supply conundrum...)
 
Luke

Got to disagree with you on several point.

The SSME is an expensive, obsolete design that is a nightmare to maintain. The RS-68 is a more robust design, has far fewer parts, and is much less expensive to manufacture yet develops 50% greater thrust. The SSME cost ~$60 million versus $20 million for a RS-68.

The Shuttle uses 3 SSME engines to get 1.5 million pounds of thrust. An equivalent 1.5 million pound of thrust can be obtained with 2 RS-68 engines. The engines for a rocket with 1.5 million pounds of thrust cost $180 million if you use SSMEs or $40 million if you use RS-68s. That's only a savings of $140 million! Note the RS-68 has a short nozzle. A simple extension skirt would improve vacuum Isp by 30 s and increase thrust by 7%!.

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_main_engine

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/rs68.htm#RS-68

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-68

The late 60's J-2S engine developed half the thrust of the SSME and the J-2X under development will developed 15% more thrust than the older and developed J2-S engine. The new J-2X will cost more than the RS-68 so I'm not sure how much of a "deal" it is considering the J-2X weighs 80% more than the J-2S that has already been developed. The lower Isp of the older engine could be compensated for by adding an additional 2,800 pounds of propellant, the added weight of the J-2X! This would be a more cost effective solution.

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/j2.htm#J-2X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-2_(rocket_engine)

Bob
 
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Don't forget about IPD, MB-XX, Merlin 1A, 1B, 1C, and Block 2, RS-84 (since canceled), and others that I'm probably forgetting. Yes, it's quiet out there right now. But not completely quiet :cyclops: (Notably with IPD... that was a coooool engine!)

(There is more LOX/Kero development work beginning again in the wings, I hear, politically motivated by the RD-172/RD-180 supply conundrum...)

I'm not sure what the IPD buys you over the J-2S except you spend more money to develop it.

Space-X is a private company so their Merlins will move along cost effectively.

The RS-84 is neat, and it has 22% more thrust than the RD-180 it probably would replace, but it's not as big as the F-1 or the RS-171 that is needed for an interplanetary mission. It's also a single nozzle engine versus a dual nozzle design so it's longer and it does not have the thrust to weight ratio of the RD-180. I wish when we copy Russian technology we would adopt the configuration as well.

You might find the following article interesting as it suggests replacing the current Ares-V design with modified Atlas-V technology without solids or just building a modern version of a Saturn-V both of which use LOX/kerosine for the first stage.

https://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/n.../space/space_blog+(Space+Blog+The+Write+Stuff)

Bob
 
I'm not sure what the IPD buys you over the J-2S except you spend more money to develop it.

Four words: full flow staged combustion. :w:

The RS-84 is neat, and it has 22% more thrust than the RD-180 it probably would replace, but it's not as big as the F-1 or the RS-171 that is needed for an interplanetary mission. It's also a single nozzle engine versus a dual nozzle design so it's longer and it does not have the thrust to weight ratio of the RD-180. I wish when we copy Russian technology we would adopt the configuration as well.

Agreed. Though it makes the plumbing more complex, the multi-chamber design pays significant dividends in T/W, packaging, and combustion stability. (I wonder if there's any NIH syndrome appearing in that decision, too.) Now if we could just figure out what magic alloy to use for the critical pump parts, we'd be set :cheers:

The study of volumetric efficiency vs. lower Isp for a LOX/H2 vs. LOX/RP system has always been a very interesting problem to me. Looks like that's being considered again. Do you know if the data in that article came from the original ESAS, or was that with new configuration information? The story link at the top of the page had a dead link.
 
Always take political statements with
a grain (or few) of salt...

Like when Bush announced the Mars mission
right after starting two unfunded wars in Iraq
and Afganistan, well knowing it'll never happen...

Cause -> Consequence, as simple as that.
If the $$$ were blown by the predecessors
(from record surplus to record deficit in 6 months flat)
please don't blame the new guys for being broke...

I'll take my axe and demerits now
for bringing up the facts...
:D
 
Luke

Got to disagree with you on several point.

The SSME is an expensive, obsolete design that is a nightmare to maintain. The RS-68 is a more robust design, has far fewer parts, and is much less expensive to manufacture yet develops 50% greater thrust. The SSME cost ~$60 million versus $20 million for a RS-68.

The Shuttle uses 3 SSME engines to get 1.5 million pounds of thrust. An equivalent 1.5 million pound of thrust can be obtained with 2 RS-68 engines. The engines for a rocket with 1.5 million pounds of thrust cost $180 million if you use SSMEs or $40 million if you use RS-68s. That's only a savings of $140 million! Note the RS-68 has a short nozzle. A simple extension skirt would improve vacuum Isp by 30 s and increase thrust by 7%!.

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_main_engine

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/rs68.htm#RS-68

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-68

The late 60's J-2S engine developed half the thrust of the SSME and the J-2X under development will developed 15% more thrust than the older and developed J2-S engine. The new J-2X will cost more than the RS-68 so I'm not sure how much of a "deal" it is considering the J-2X weighs 80% more than the J-2S that has already been developed. The lower Isp of the older engine could be compensated for by adding an additional 2,800 pounds of propellant, the added weight of the J-2X! This would be a more cost effective solution.

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/j2.htm#J-2X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-2_(rocket_engine)

Bob

True, SSME is terribly complicated and expensive, but it's ISP is terrific, and it's regeneratively cooled. From what I've read, base heating issues from plume/hot gas recirculation under the core of an Ares V type vehicle, in combination with SRB radiant heat loads and cross-radiational heat loads from the clustered engines make the base heat load environment too hot for ablatively cooled RS-68's to work in such an application. RS-68 works fine on the smaller core of Delta IV, and there is not radiative heat loads imposed by other nearby RS-68's in a cluster, since Delta IV only uses one engine. The plume recirculation problem isn't very pronounced since the core is smaller in diameter, and more aerodynamically shaped than a similar SDLV core would be, which reduced plume hot gas recirculation and provides a much more benign base heating environment around the RS-68 on Delta IV. The GEM's are MUCH smaller than SRB's and their exhaust plume's radiative heat load onto the RS-68 is much smaller as well. Even on the Delta IV Heavy, the engines are spread MUCH farther apart than they would be on an SDLV core, so the base heating is much less pronounced.

From what I've read, if it holds true, preliminary work has shown that for RS-68's to be used on the core of an SDLV vehicle, it will have to be made regeneratively cooled, which is essentially a whole new engine development program, with all the commensurate DDT&E expenses, qualification, and integration. BIG BIG $$$ and MANY YEARS down the road, slowing the entire effort.

RS-68 has terrific thrust levels, which is great for a first stage engine, true enough. But it comes at the expense of considerably lower ISP than SSME can achieve, which directly equates to increased fuel burned, meaning a bigger core stage for the SDLV, which then entails a HUGE amount of expensive changes to the existing infrastructure to support the larger core tankage. The additional first stage weight also compromises the design, since the weight of the additional fuel and tankage cuts into payload capacity and really means the vehicle should stage sooner to get rid of the dead weight to optimize, but it cannot due to the two stage design, and a three-stage design would be a non-starter for cost reasons.

From what I've read, the costs to re-develop RS-68 into a regeneratively cooled engine, would require substantial changes to the turbopumps, powerhead, valving, injector plates, and of course development of a new channel wall nozzle, so essentially a whole new engine. For less money and FAR less time, SSME could undergo a smaller 'simplification' program to reduce touch labor, eliminate many of the expensive features for 'reusability' that was necessary on shuttle but would be unneeded on an SDLV, which should significantly reduce per-unit costs, and perhaps develop a channel-wall nozzle instead of the older style brazed tube nozzle which is much more expensive and labor intensive to build. The final per-unit costs would still be higher for SSME than RS-68 Regens, but not by a whole lot, and they would be ready MUCH faster for FAR less development money than a regen RS-68. Throw in the advantages of improved ISP allowing for smaller tankage and less infrastructure changes to pay for, and SSME starts looking mighty darn good!

Agree also on the J-2S/ J-2X debate... I was rather shocked to see how much weight gain the X has over the S, for so little additional thrust and I've read some stuff that the ISP isn't turning out as good as they'd hoped, either. If that's the case, then what you said makes excellent sense-- simply launch the less efficient (lower ISP) but lighter "S" with more fuel and forego the expense of developing the "X", since it's additional weight offsets the weight savings from having to carry less fuel, especially if rumors are true that the ISP of "X" is less than hoped.

Anyway, that's just what I've read and heard...

later! OL JR :)
 
Don't forget about IPD, MB-XX, Merlin 1A, 1B, 1C, and Block 2, RS-84 (since canceled), and others that I'm probably forgetting. Yes, it's quiet out there right now. But not completely quiet :cyclops: (Notably with IPD... that was a coooool engine!)

(There is more LOX/Kero development work beginning again in the wings, I hear, politically motivated by the RD-172/RD-180 supply conundrum...)

I didn't mention Merlin because it was developed by an independent company for proprietary use-- it has NOTHING to do with NASA (which is a good thing or it'd cost five times as much to do the same job). RS-84 would have been a VERY good investment for NASA and should have been completed, especially since they were pretty close to finishing. I've read a little about TR-107 and it sounded intriguing, but it too was cancelled or never finished. The rest on your list I'm not familiar with.

I find it extremely amusing that our DOD space assets ride to orbit largely on Russian-made engines. That says something fundamental AFAIC...

At any rate, reading up on Astronautix amongst other places, the Russians have TONS of engines available to them... which certainly simplifies things when you're trying to design a new booster!

The Russian investment in engine research has yielded some impressive results and side-benefits, as well... from what I've read, PWR would LOVE to build RD-170's but the metallurgy has them stumped... the Russians figured out how to create materials that can hold up to burning oxygen-rich without melting down-- knowledge we don't have and can't immediately duplicate.

From what I've read anyway... OL JR :)
 
You might find the following article interesting as it suggests replacing the current Ares-V design with modified Atlas-V technology without solids or just building a modern version of a Saturn-V both of which use LOX/kerosine for the first stage.

https://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/n.../space/space_blog+(Space+Blog+The+Write+Stuff)

Bob


Which would make a certain Utah company and it's lobbyists and Congressional delegation VERY unhappy, as well a certain Senator from Alabama, since an Atlas V Phase III (or whatever Atlas-derived HLV you picked) would be built by Boeing, not Huntsville. Modern Saturn V sans solids, maybe, but you'd still have to mollify Utah and I don't see that happening... as well as the "national defense" issues involved with keeping our solid propellant technologies 'cutting edge' by way of ATK making all those nice SRB's, in lieu of ICBMs.... or so the argument goes (sounds awfully strawman to me, but... )

Good luck with that option politically... maybe if there were NO other choice and the existing SRB hardware/capabilities and development contracts were ALL gone... MAYBE... doubtful before...

IMHO... OL JR :)

Edit: Not that I'm saying it couldn't work or wouldn't be the best choice, because in many ways it would be the best way to go, but it would be CLEAN SHEET, and NOT SDLV, and that's POLITICALLY a non-starter unless some MAJOR political changes happen, and not just at the ballot box...
 
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Always take political statements with
a grain (or few) of salt...

Like when Bush announced the Mars mission
right after starting two unfunded wars in Iraq
and Afganistan, well knowing it'll never happen...

Cause -> Consequence, as simple as that.
If the $$$ were blown by the predecessors
(from record surplus to record deficit in 6 months flat)
please don't blame the new guys for being broke...

I'll take my axe and demerits now
for bringing up the facts...
:D

Here's something interesting I heard on the radio yesterday...

National Debt when Bushie-baby (no I wasn't a fan) left office: 2.5 TRILLION $$$

National Debt after ONE YEAR of NOBAMA (NO I'm not a fan): 12.4 TRILLION $$$

Agree with you roadkill that Bush squandered the gains made by Clinton in getting us back to a surplus and on the road to prosperity again. We blew all the savings and have been living on the credit cards for 9 years now with TWO unfunded wars, and we're just about maxed out...

Usually when folks do that sort of thing, they end up living under a bridge... wonder how a COUNTRY will fare... OL JR :)
 
'In the meantime, the White House will direct NASA to concentrate on Earth-science projects -- principally, researching and monitoring climate change --
 
Wouldn't that be the job of NOAA?

https://www.noaa.gov

Maybe NASA and NOAA should merge, their domain would stretch from the surface of the Earth to the edge of the heliosphere. NOAA could be the database and analyzation of planets (including Earth) and space conditions, and NASA could be the hardware side, satellites, launchers, probes, operations, etc.

Please don't call it NOSA....
 
I wish I had saved something I wrote a few years ago, and have said a few times.

Because it is coming more, and more true.

If a Washington D.C. “Think Tank” had long-range plan to slowly kill the US manned Space program, they likely could not have come up with a BETTER plan for it than exactly what was planned out.

Kill the shuttle so we can go to MARS.

Remember Mars? THAT was the original reasoning.

Mars.

But that would take so long, so the plan was the “Constellation” system, for a rocket to go to ISS, and then to the Moon.

Why go to the Moon again? To “gain experience” in going to Mars.

What the ????

Including Lunar Bases. Lunar bases? What the.... again??? For MARS?

Never made any sense to me.

If the idea is to go to Mars, then GO to Mars. Don’t waste time and $ on the Moon. It’s a distraction if the REAL goal was Mars.

And killing the shuttle to for the purpose of going to Mars was the original plan.

Meanwhile, come up with an approach for developing rockets and spacecraft that’s all on the cheap, so it goes reaaallllyyy slowwww..... and I am talking about the planned schedule here. Never mind the extra delays and problems that came along, in part because it’s trying to be done so much on the cheap that they find out they can NOT do it THAT cheap and it takes more time (and $) to even do a half-baked plan like this.

I really do wish I’d kept what I wrote back then, with a date on it. Because one of the things I thought was too likely to happen is it would get so fouled up, and public/political interest would wane so much that it would be cancelled.

Partly by how poorly it was going (never got a big “start” to begin with) and partly from the mere fact that programs that take 10-20 -30 years often tend to get canceled along the way. Such as all the previous “shuttle replacements” (Remember DC-X? X-33 VentureStar?). Or the US Army Comanche “Stealth” Helicopter which was under development for 22 years, and had flying prototypes, when it was cancelled after nearly $7 Billion (with a “B”) was spent on it.

I am only really surprised that it didn’t stretch out another 4-5 years before it got cancelled. But something had to give, a report last summer showed that to continue with the Ares program as planned, NASA would need another 3 Billion dollars a year, because from day one it was underfunded and not easy and simple to do. Those who thought since we did it with Apollo, it would be easy and cheap to use some modified shuttle ET/SRB hardware and cobble together “Apollo 2.0”, using “Apollo 0.2” funding levels, had it wrong.

What REALLY sucks now is that it is 1/2 year to a year too late to try to keep the shuttles going a few more years, as the critical manufacturing equipment for things like the External Tanks and much smaller key things like refurbishment supplies for the orbiters have been shut down.

Whoa boy.

I found it. I thought just maybe I did post one of my messages on this whole thing somewhere. And here it is:

https://tinyurl.com/y8mfkp6

It is in the sci.space.shuttle usenet group. So far back ago that the hype over going back to the Moon (instead of the announced original goal of MARS) hadn’t taken over everyone’s brains yet.

I posted that one in March, 2004. Nearly 6 years ago.

To give you some context, the people I quoted at first were talking about what if a shuttle mission came apart like Columbia did, over a highly populated area. One of them (Ian Stirling) replied that the shuttle (program) would be abandoned if that happened.

My reply to it all starts with : “In other words, 2010 arrives a bit earlier.......”, and the rest of it is all my writing. “Mars or Bust NASA”.

Actually, that message I found is still not quite the one I was thinking of, since later (a year or so after) I wrote one about the idea that a Think Tank could not come up with much better of a long range plan to slowly kill US manned spaceflight than this. Indeed my message there is so old... I refer to “CEV” (Crew Exploration Vehicle), which was what later got renamed Orion.

Take note, I am NOT HAPPY it has turned out this way. But for those who are so “shocked”, and want to blame someone, the chances of this occurring were foreseeable and should not really be such a shock.

This was never given the public “launch” as Apollo was, with the political backing and FUNDING year by year (Was sort of routinely announced by the White House in January 2004, and then not mentioned at all in the State of the Union Address about 2 weeks later). So even if the Ares/Orion programs had not gotten off track over time, this whole thing had long-range problems.

- George Gassaway
 
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BTW - NASA has a contest to design a patch to commemorate the end of the shuttle program. Here’s one I made last November.

- George Gassaway

MissionAccomplishedSpace.jpg
 
Here's something interesting I heard on the radio yesterday...

National Debt when Bushie-baby (no I wasn't a fan) left office: 2.5 TRILLION $$$

National Debt after ONE YEAR of NOBAMA (NO I'm not a fan): 12.4 TRILLION $$$

I'm afraid the radio lied to you. On the day that G.W.Bush left office (1/20/2009), the national debt was

$10,626,877,048,913.08 (yeah, I'm aware that it's silly to count down to the penny, but that's what the site gives you)

Source: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway
(the U.S. Treasury)

One year (1/20/10, same source) later it was

$12,327,380,804,696.82

so that second number you cited is essentially correct. But the first one is complete nonsense. I think that you'll find that the national debt has not been as low as $2.5 trillion since the early 1980s.

You might want to consider tuning your radio to a more honest station.
=======================
For rocketry content, let me add that I find this thread fascinating, especially as it has evoked some really good information from Bob Krech and David Reese. The question "where are we currently with respect to getting people into space?" is clearly a very complicated one, and I imagine that outside of those folks who have their heads in this stuff every day, people (e.g., me) generally don't have a clue about it.
 
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Here's something interesting I heard on the radio yesterday...

National Debt when Bushie-baby (no I wasn't a fan) left office: 2.5 TRILLION $$$

National Debt after ONE YEAR of NOBAMA (NO I'm not a fan): 12.4 TRILLION $$$

Then you probably ought not to listen to that radio show anymore.

$2.5 trillion was the national debt when Daddy Bush came INTO office in 1988.
At the end of fiscal 2005 it was $8 trillion.
 
Hmmm... not COMPLETELY accurate...

1) Policy DOES tend to outlive the president that formed it, even if it only means that the incoming president has to expend political capital/energy to create inertia for changes to that policy, and dealing with the fallout/ramifications that the old policy created, which ties in with what else I'm about to say.

2) Congress will have it's say, and it will be far more politicized and rancous than most will assume, especially with the upcoming election (nobody wants folks losing jobs in THEIR district, because folks that lose their jobs are not as likely to vote for an incumbent, espeically if they see that incumbent as being somehow responsible for their job loss) and in light of the upcoming layoffs at NASA and the contractors as the Shuttle Program winds down.

3) MOST importantly and germaine to the discussion at hand, correct, that the information and hardware still exists and wouldn't disappear, HOWEVER, a shutdown or significant delay would make things MUCH MUCH harder, if nigh impossible, to get going again. There are HUGE costs to maintaining capabilities, infrastructure, tooling, and especially SKILLS (in the form of skilled, experienced workers) during a shutdown or significant delays. The decision to shutdown the shuttle program years ago (2005 IIRC) means that a LOT of contracts and capabilities have been let go, ended, or otherwise gone away. That is one reason why a shuttle extension is virtually a non-starter at this point-- spare parts were ordered for the anticipated number of remaining flights, and then the contracts were terminated to save costs. Many of the shuttle parts are "one-offs", certainly NOT off-the-shelf, and the single source vendors no longer have the capability of producing more. Some shuttle parts, especially electronics, were BADLY outdated (still 70's technology) being produced by small vendors or even large companies, which were maintaining antiquated production capabilities no longer used for any other product EXCEPT that particular shuttle component, which is VERY expensive to do (and that expense is reflected in the cost of the component to the shuttle program) and once those spares were delivered and the contract terminated, that machinery and capability to produce more was scrapped, since it was no longer needed. Even in cases where such capability was put in storage, there are significant costs to "pulling it out of mothballs" and getting it going again-- which would drive costs for the parts they would make MUCH MUCH higher. Again, you can't just go to Autozone and get the parts you need-- these are all custom one-off specially made parts and once the vendor or his capability is gone, it's pretty much gone for good. You also can't just "plug in" an updated part or even design a new one-- not without a VERY expensive and TIME CONSUMING recertification program to ensure that the new part (say using NEW, MODERN electronics) will "play nice" with all the other parts it has to work with, and will perform with absolute reliability and safety... so not only do you have to spend the HUGE $$$ to design and build a new part and create the capability to create more copies of it, but then you have to spend a TON of $$$ and time requalifying that part for manned spaceflight when integrated into the vehicle systems. WAY, WAY EXPENSIVE.

That was a MAJOR tipoff during the campaign, when Obama said he would prefer to "put Constellation on hold for FIVE YEARS and reinvest that money into education". A five-year hold is tantamount to cancellation, because it would cost probably a billion bucks a year just to keep the lights on, everything safely in storage and upkeep, and safely guarded while waiting for the day when the program would resume. You'd have to pay to put everything INTO storage, upkeep of it to prevent it from rusting/rotting down while in storage, and then pay to take it OUT of storage and set it all up to produce parts for the program AGAIN when your "hold" was over... It's not as simple as 'turning the lights off when you leave' for five years and coming back and turning them on again when it's time to start again. Those costs are sunk and essentially wasted. Also, there are SO many parts coming from OUTSIDE VENDORS, and who's going to pay THEIR costs for shutdown, mothballing, storage, setup, and restarting production again?? They CERTAINLY aren't going to do that for free! Cancel the contracts, and the company is going to do what's best for them, which in many cases, is tossing old outdated machinery which was producing the one-off parts which are no longer needed (or paid for) and making room for new capabilities to produce modern components for other uses (airliners, military, commercial, consumer, whatever). Turn those liabilities into paying assets, which stuff in storage DOES NOT DO (unless PAID to store it, so how does that save money again?)

Remember, we still have the "blueprints" to make F-1 engines, and actually Pratt and Whitney/Rocketdyne said they COULD restart production on a "new" F-1 engine for $500 million (probably closer to a billion today, but the point is made). The TOOLING is long gone, and a lot of the processes and materials used to make the originals are long gone, no longer used, antiquated, or replaced by newer/better/cheaper materials or processes, and would have to be re-engineered and reintegrated into the production of the final product. That's why re-creating the J-2S and upgrading it to a J-2X is proving to be such a long-term and expensive program.... we know how to make those too, but RECREATING THE ABILITY to make them, with modern materials and processes, is the EXPENSIVE part...

Anyway, that's just something to consider in all this... There are upsides and downsides most folks never think about in some of these seemingly 'simple' decisions... OL JR :)



For the most part I agree. The thing to remember is even if the program isn't restarted in it's exact form, and according to many experts maybe it shouldn't, it still can provide a technology base to move forward. The reason the MOL, Saturn and other programs havn't been revived or even reinvented is that they are no longer practial. Newer and better technologies have been put in place. Materials sciences alone have moved forward light years but they are the foundations which we've built on. The shuttle is expensive because the technology is fourty years old or more. No one uses it for anything else. Yes it's expensive to maintain or reintroduce. This fact applies to this descusion in one question. Is it worth it to maintain? Has Orion or the constelation program introduced any new technologies that couldn't be reintroduced or improved upon. The majority of the program has been off the shelf, or modified off the shelf, to date. That was the idea, to keep cost down. Most, not all but most, of the original development material is still in the data and simulation developement stage. In short, intelectual property. This is not expensive to maintain. I can fit ten gigs of data on my thumbnail for $30. I'm not saying there won't be a loss. There will but we have to consider the cost of the loss to future gain.
One the whole I have to agree with many that the government needs to get out of spaceflight. Too much politics, too much buracracy, too much corruption and too much waste. Private buisiness or business conglomerates can do it better, faster and cheaper. They have a vested interest in making it work. I know, I work for such a company and see the evidence of it every day.
I wonder. Is the greater part of this a displeasure at the program cancelation (postponement) or are we so desperate for a truely meaningful space program that we are willing to pin our hopes on a so so program and it's loss repersents the loss of the dream all together? food for thought.
 
I think that they are still working on space programs. I saw the orion project mention and my shop is one of lockeed martin's vendors. We are working on a life size capsule capable of holding 4 astonauts for missions. I knew that were going away from the shuttle but killing the space program altogether? I doubt it...jmo
 
'In the meantime, the White House will direct NASA to concentrate on Earth-science projects -- principally, researching and monitoring climate change --

Then they need to contact NRO-- or whoever is in charge of SIGINT satellites...

They need to arrange for Signals Intelligence assets to be assigned to monitor the emails and communications of these quacks working on supposed "climate change"... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Later! OL JR :)
 
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