ICEs and EVs

[kuririn]

The Ford Mach E tried that, and well, the looks are off and the price is high.

Mach E is an SUV and nothing like the original Mustang.
Camaro EV will be a car.
Base will have modest horsepower and range.
Not high performance Tesla beaters.
We shall see.
EDIT: Here's the article
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/0...ccessible and appealing to a broader audience.

 

[Art Upton]

Mach E is an SUV and nothing like the original Mustang.
Camaro EV will be a car.
Base will have modest horsepower and range.
Not high performance Tesla beaters.
We shall see.

The Mach E turned into a cross over, as that is what buyers want.
Remember when Ford said it is no longer going to sell cars other than the Mustang?

 

[kuririn]

The Mach E turned into a cross over, as that is what buyers want.
Remember when Ford said it is no longer going to sell cars other than the Mustang?

Yup, sure do.
See the link in my edit above.
Chevy CEO wants to bring back a pony car with the Camaro badge.

 

[OverTheTop]

My inlaws just purchased a Lexus LBX hybrid. I just read the specs. Really weird is that the AWD version only has a 4.7kW motor on the rear, and is only 100kg heavier than the 2WD version. I find that strange. Anyone else? I suppose a few HP on the rear wheels can be good, but would hardly seem to be worth the effort?

 

[afadeev]

Per the Hertz Car Sales page, it now says they qualify for the $4,000 tax credit. But what I had read, they had to be 2yrs old, or older.

As always, validate the rebate claims independent of the Selling entity.
In th case of $4K Federal EV credit for used cars, the ultimate source is the irs.gov:
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deducti...edit equals 30% of,credit to future tax years.

Beware, that Federal EV rebates have income and "qualified" vehicle restrictions. For both new and used EVs.

As to battery degradation, it's a very real thing. And it varies by how the battery was used (or abused), how often it was charged via L3 fast DC chargers (bad) vs. slower L2 (240V) or L1 (120V) chargers (best for battery longevity). Therefore, ex-taxi and ex-rental fleet cars take the biggest hits in battery degradation.

FWIW, my 70K mile Tesla still has 89% of the original battery capacity per deep discharge cycle test from the other month. My Tesla battery warranty is good for 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Chevy Bolt's warranty is for 8 years or 100,000 miles, without any explicit battery capacity retention commitments.

HTH,
a

 

[boatgeek]

Everyone has an opinion and as some have said buying a used rental can be a concern. The Teslas are probably treated harder than the Suv's, and hatchbacks like the Bolt, as the Teslas are more of a sports car. That being said, I have been on the Hertz back lots and at all the major airports, they do have good maintenance shops, and access to the dealers, for all updates, and repairs.

A while ago, the guys at Car Talk said that in general, buying from a rental car company was a pretty good deal. You knew that the car got good maintenance, and most people drive most rental cars pretty gently. The exception is sports cars, because people would rent them and drive them, well, like a sports car that they're never going to see again. I can see lumping Teslas in with the general sports car category, as well as trying to filter out any cars that were rented as Ubers or Lyfts--those would have more taxi-like wear and tear. You could probably figure out the latter by looking at the miles/year.

 

[bjphoenix]

Talk is starting around mid 30s.

Like buying power tools- maybe that's the price without battery.

 

[kuririn]

Like buying power tools- maybe that's the price without battery.

The article said comparable in price to the Equinox, which I guess starts at $35K (with battery).

 

[kuririn]

Rendering of what the 2026 Bolt MAY look like.

New Ultium battery platform.
$30-35K projected price.
Shoot, if the Camaro EV is going to be $35K base then I'm opting for the Camaro.

 

[afadeev]

New Ultium battery platform.

Ultium isn't really new, and isn't really GM's.
They just slapped a marketing term onto LG Energy batteries that are based off nickel-cobalt-manganese-aluminum (NCMA, or NCA) chemistry in pouch format. NCA packs have a shorter life cycle and are more expensive than LFP batteries.

Tesla (currently) uses either Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries for low-end products (low power density, but cheap), or Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) for high-density high-end vehicle models.

GM, with its "Ultium" NCMA chemistry, is neither here nor there.

 

[kuririn]

Ultium isn't really new, and isn't really GM's.
They just slapped a marketing term onto LG Energy batteries that are based off nickel-cobalt-manganese-aluminum (NCMA, or NCA) chemistry in pouch format. NCA packs have a shorter life cycle and are more expensive than LFP batteries.

Tesla (currently) uses either Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries for low-end products (low power density, but cheap), or Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) for high-density high-end vehicle models.

GM, with its "Ultium" NCMA chemistry, is neither here nor there.

If they're more expensive and don't last as long then why are they making it the platform for many of their EVs?

 

[Art Upton]

If they're more expensive and don't last as long then why are they making it the platform for many of their EVs?

because they are GM?

I left their camp after decades of trying their products.

 

[afadeev]

If they're more expensive and don't last as long then why are they making it the platform for many of their EVs?

because they are GM?
I left their camp after decades of trying their products.

Yep.

Large companies like to make "large" bets on technology. Even if / when they don't fully understand it.
It's a good career booster for folks leading such projects, and betting "big" is easier to sell to the CEO and the Board than making multiple smaller and more flexible investments that adjust to evolving technology and material costs over time. Mostly because budgets are fought over annually, and there is zero guarantee that there will be funding for high risk/high reward project in future years, so if you can, you get it funded once, upfront. Bias towards "big bets" is one of the structural curses of large corporations. So is admitting to making bad "big bets" and pulling the plug on dead-end tech fast enough.

In a weird way, it makes perfect sense that GM/Ford/BMW would do something like that.
Even Tesla did it, when it "bet big" on 4860 batteries in 2020. A bet that boosted Tesla's stock price after Battery Day 2020 announcement, but is yet to pay off. Tesla barely uses 4860 batteries in its cars due to ongoing production and defect problems that limit output to around CyberTruck production rate (Tesla stopped putting 4860 batteries in Model Y's to save them for CTs).

I found a few articles where GM claimed that their approach with NCMA materials was going to bring the per kWh cost down below $100. Based on 2020 cost of input materials, and fully ramped-up production rate. Well, guess what, a lot of things changed since then, and GM is nowhere close to reaching for scale production. Scaling up and automating production has turned out to be much harder than GM and LG ever imagined.

It turns out that reaching scale and hitting low cost goals in battery production is harder than building cars.
The leading EV vehicle manufacturer in the world (BYD) started out as a battery supplier. It still is, selling LFP batteries to Tesla and others.
But BYD also expanded into car manufacturing as a side project, and has figured out how to scale that up to take #1 EV spot from Tesla.
Going the other way (automakers building batteries) is, evidently, significantly more challenging.

a

 

[Bravo52]

Mach E is an SUV and nothing like the original Mustang.
Camaro EV will be a car.
Base will have modest horsepower and range.
Not high performance Tesla beaters.
We shall see.
EDIT: Here's the article
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/05/gm-president-sees-next-gen-chevy-camaro-as-ev-pony-car/#:~:text=General Motors President Mark Reuss has expressed a,it accessible and appealing to a broader audience.

Ewwww....a four door Camaro?

 

[kuririn]

Ewwww....a four door Camaro?

Two door. See the pic in post #1820.

 

[CalebJ]

Two door. See the pic in post #1820.

Chevy's CEO says he wants to offer an affordable Camaro EV.
View attachment 648828

Maybe 2026.

That looks like a 4 door?

 

[Tyeeking]

Two door. See the pic in post #1820.

Take a closer look at the picture you’re referencing.

 

[kuririn]

That looks like a 4 door?

Better pic.

Maybe both?
Or undecided?

 

[CalebJ]

Are all of these just third party concept art?

 

[kuririn]

Are all of these just third party concept art?

Yes, cuz the CEO just stated recently what he would like to see.

 

[Banzai88]

That looks like a 4 door?

Look closely, red circles look like door handles (front and rear), yellow circle looks like the body seam for the back set of doors! Clearly different from what looks like a 2 door model posted by Kuririn

ETA this is different than the one posted as a comparison to the posted in post 1848

 

[kuririn]

I guess it's a concept that hasn't been finalized yet.
But I remember owning a two door Firebird and what a pain it was flipping down the front seat so rear seat passengers could get in and out.
So I wouldn't be averse to a four door sporty car.

 

[CalebJ]

View attachment 649342
Look closely, red circles look like door handles (front and rear), yellow circle looks like the body seam for the back set of doors! Clearly different from what looks like a 2 door model posted by Kuririn.

That picture you circled is from post #1820 by Kuririn.

 

[Banzai88]

That picture you circled is from post #1820 by Kuririn.

And that looks like a 4 door, and the one he posted in 1848 is clearly a 2 door.

 

[kuririn]

And that looks like a 4 door, and the one he posted in 1848 is clearly a 2 door.

We'll find out when and if they finalize a design and go into production.

 

[CalebJ]

Right, I get that. But he referenced 1820 prior to post 1848 as proof that it was really a 2 door. That's where the confusion began.

 

[kuririn]

My bad, still an idea in the CEOs' mind for now.

 

[bjphoenix]

Tesla (currently) uses either Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries for low-end products (low power density, but cheap), or Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) for high-density high-end vehicle models.

I've heard that type thing but I've also seen videos where third parties disassembled battery packs and found what looked to me like standard 18650 batteries like in my flashlight.

Ewwww....a four door Camaro?

The current ICE Camaro started as a 4-door, it is based on the CTS-V which in turn came from an Australian Holden.

I guess it's a concept that hasn't been finalized yet.
But I remember owning a two door Firebird and what a pain it was flipping down the front seat so rear seat passengers could get in and out.
So I wouldn't be averse to a four door sporty car.

I participated in a marketing study many years ago. One thing I had to do was walk into a big meeting room and they had a car setting there. We were asked to stand in one location and look at the side of the car then answer a bunch of questions on a clipboard. Then we were told to walk around to the other side of the car and answer other questions on the clipboard. The back side of the car looked different from the other side of the car.

And a 4-door sporty car isn't all that bad, I have one now. When I was younger I thought 4-door cars were dull but I've grown more open-minded since then.

 

[BEC]

I've heard that type thing but I've also seen videos where third parties disassembled battery packs and found what looked to me like standard 18650 batteries like in my flashlight.

It really depends on which Tesla and when this was done. They initially did use 18650 cells in their packs, and have since diversified to both larger diameter cells and lithium iron phosphate cells in some cars in some markets.

 

[Art Upton]

Who puts other people in the back seat of Firebirds, Camaros, Mustangs, 70s Challengers?

The Dodge Charger was the "experiment" to see if a 4 door sporty car would sell. It does to some, but If I had to have 4 doors might as well have a compact cross over/suv.

I have an Elantra GT commuter car for the last 7 years and really never considered it sporty. I got it at the time as I could not get my truck into the parking garage safely that the company I worked for at the time moved downtown. It does have a good power to weight ratio over others in it's class.

Time to trade it in now at 108K, looking at Toyota as my Tundra has been nice. But I am not going to buy one of these: