For stability - Ballast vs fin size?

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Jackasmacka

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I am curious as to how you all optimize stability between changing the fin size or adding a ballast nosecone weight.

From my current understanding (and in sim) it seems to make more sense to improve stability via ballast as it would then have greater momentum and travel higher. The only argument I can think of to increasing fin size for stability is perhaps to avoid roll.

Thoughts? Would using very small fins be viable so long as the stability is adequate?
 
Length of body tube.

Laundry shelf / Baffle, to keep the weight of the recovery gear forward.

That's what I use.

Estes Highflyer shaped fins reduce roll, without increasing stability too much. Since they reach too far forward.
 
From my current understanding (and in sim) it seems to make more sense to improve stability via ballast as it would then have greater momentum and travel higher.
This is true, up to a point. The concept is called optimum mass. At a certain point, increasing the mass causes the velocity at burnout to drop by enough that overall kinetic energy is lower.

I am curious as to how you all optimize stability between changing the fin size or adding a ballast nosecone weight.
Generally, I follow a 4 step decision tree:
1) Is the rocket under optimum mass for the motor I most care about? If yes, add nose weight.
2) Am I able to change the body tube length (not scale, or something I’ve glued a shock cord in)? If yes, make it longer. This moves the CG forward, increasing stability.
3) Am I able to change the fin area (again, not scale, or something I’ve already cut/glued)? If yes, redesign fins to move CP aft - either more area, or a different design.
4) Do I really want/need to fly on the motor that is marginally stable, or can I use a max engine that is lighter? If I need the marginally stable configuration, I add altitude sapping nose weight and grumble about it.
 
My TAP "strongly" recommended that I get my on-the-rail stability margin under 2 and use a high thrust motor to avoid "weather cocking". It hurt to trim two inches off the fin tips, especially since I had managed to get a nice paint job done for once, but the flight was successful.
 
I am curious as to how you all optimize stability between changing the fin size or adding a ballast nosecone weight.

From my current understanding (and in sim) it seems to make more sense to improve stability via ballast as it would then have greater momentum and travel higher. The only argument I can think of to increasing fin size for stability is perhaps to avoid roll.

Thoughts? Would using very small fins be viable so long as the stability is adequate?
It depends. Static stability just requires your Cp be behind the Cg, but dynamic stability cares about pitching moment and the moment of inertia of the rocket. You can move the Cg forward with ballast, you can move the Cp backwards with larger fins. Ballast at the front of the rocket increases moment of inertia and decreases your damping ratio so even if it's "stable" it may oscillate back and forth while still going at high speeds. Likewise if you just make fins bigger you are increasing the corrective moment of the rocket (and by extension damping ratio) and you could weathercock aggressively into the wind. In general keeping the bulk of the rocket's weight near its center of mass will help, and whether you need ballast or bigger fins to fine tune Cg and Cp will depend on what your current damping ratio is. Apogee's Peak of Flight newsletter has a good series on dynamic stability if you want to read into it.
 
In general, unless I'm building a scale model, I like the airframe to be as short as it can be and still hold all the contents I'll ever want to put in it. Making the airframe longer than necessary brings a multitude of potential problems.

I know, I know. Almost the whole dang industry is all about making rockets longer so they look zoomier, or so the manufacturer can charge a lot more for another $0.73 of tubing and coupler in the bag. Doesn't make it better for performance.
 
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If you're under optimum weight, nose mass will increase apogee.

Adding length will always decrease apogee. It also makes the rocket more susceptible to CP-vs-AOA shift. And if you're hitting it with a high-thrust motor, it can dramatically increase the tendency to buckle and shred the airframe.
 
This is true, up to a point. The concept is called optimum mass. At a certain point, increasing the mass causes the velocity at burnout to drop by enough that overall kinetic energy is lower.
Very helpful info, also appreciate the decision tree.

Sounds I have been searching for this optimum mass manually by tweaking fin size and ballast weights for max altitude, but is there a better way to find this mass? Is it perhaps related to OpenRocket’s “optimization” panel? I saw a friend playing around with this recently but I have no experience with it so far with it.
 
Ballast at the front of the rocket increases moment of inertia and decreases your damping ratio so even if it's "stable" it may oscillate back and forth while still going at high speeds. Likewise if you just make fins bigger you are increasing the corrective moment of the rocket (and by extension damping ratio) and you could weathercock aggressively into the wind. In general keeping the bulk of the rocket's weight near its center of mass will help, and whether you need ballast or bigger fins to fine tune Cg and Cp will depend on what your current damping ratio is. Apogee's Peak of Flight newsletter has a good series on dynamic stability if you want to read into it.
Wonderful outline. Seems this is the key bit of understanding I lacked. I will definitely read into the newsletters to get a better grasp but this was a great start. Thank you.
 
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My TAP "strongly" recommended that I get my on-the-rail stability margin under 2 and use a high thrust motor to avoid "weather cocking". It hurt to trim two inches off the fin tips, especially since I had managed to get a nice paint job done for once, but the flight was successful.
Under 2cal is surprisingly low to me.

I am guessing your stability must improve as you lose motor weight and your TAP is trying to avoid overstablity.

Overstability also would explain the worry of weathercocking he mentioned.
 
One last thing to keep in mind is recovery... Adding nose weight can create a recovery challenge (i.e., can you fit a big enough chute in the rocket to handle the weight and do you have strong enough mounting points and shock chord for the heavy nosecone). Fitting the chute inside is obviously more of an issue with very short and/or thin rockets but I have run up against this issue in scale rockets that need lots of nose weight to fly.
 
In general, unless I'm building a scale model, I like the airframe to be as short as it can be and still hold all the contents I'll ever want to put in it. Making the airframe longer than necessary brings a multitude of potential problems.
I am with you on this, less from an optimal design perspective, but rather that something about empty space triggers my minor OCD. Examples of the “potential problems” in long rockets you spoke of? MidOH clearly has a different opinion.
If I can stabilize the rocket with length, instead of adding weight to the nose, I'd do that every time.
And MidOH, mind defending your stance?
 
If your goal is altitude, and you get more altitude by making the rocket heavier, that just means the motor you selected is burning too fast. When atmospheric drag is dominant, going slowly for a long time is better than going quickly for a short time. Of course, when you are using commercial motors, you're limited in what they offer, but there are some long burning motors for sale that will get light rockets higher on less impulse.
 
Adding nose weight can create a recovery challenge (i.e., can you fit a big enough chute in the rocket to handle the weight and do you have strong enough mounting points and shock chord for the heavy nosecone).
Very valid point. My university team experienced this issue firsthand when our shear pins could not hold our payload in the nose during a drop test. Basically main pins would have sheared at drogue seperation due to all the weight. This required shifting of the payload into the avionics section as a counter.
 
If your goal is altitude, and you get more altitude by making the rocket heavier, that just means the motor you selected is burning too fast. When atmospheric drag is dominant, going slowly for a long time is better than going quickly for a short time. Of course, when you are using commercial motors, you're limited in what they offer, but there are some long burning motors for sale that will get light rockets higher on less impulse.

If you can control the attitude of your rocket yes. But most folks can't.
As a result, slow moving rockets will turn into the wind and reduce altitude.

There is a sweet spot like all things. Those light rockets on slow burning motors need lots of attention to get the altitude results they "can" but only do in the hands of an experienced Rocketeer. Otherwise everyone would be able to break records.

I remember when many AP motors were way slower than they are today and the land sharks and cruz missiles happening.
And I can remember the guys at Rockets R&D saying we really need motors that can just HIT that rocket off the pad.

Next year at that same Danville Launch the new higher thrust motors really worked well for folks. Most didn't have computers or RPN calculators back in the 80s to do calculations on even. I was using a few scripts I wrote in Turbo Pascal's "Eureka The Solver" early text based math cad like program that was affordable to the masses.
 
When atmospheric drag is dominant, going slowly for a long time is better than going quickly for a short time.
Could you explain why going slowly for a long time gives more altitude? I have heard that a lot, but it has not really seemed to be the case in applications I’ve seen.

Two examples coming to mind are firstly; the N5800 has seemed to consistently outperform the O3400 from a ground launch, and second Boosted Darts, particularly the Super Loki, has a very low burn time of 2.1s, why is this?
 
I am with you on this, less from an optimal design perspective, but rather that something about empty space triggers my minor OCD. Examples of the “potential problems” in long rockets you spoke of? MidOH clearly has a different opinion.

And MidOH, mind defending your stance?


Length moves the CG forward. That's how you can use Lil fins on long rockets.

If 5" more tube means I can remove all nose weight, I do so.

You can also move a laundry shelf or baffle forward, to keep your laundry from sliding down. That's a big chunk of weight in any rocket.
 
Could you explain why going slowly for a long time gives more altitude? I have heard that a lot, but it has not really seemed to be the case in applications I’ve seen.

Two examples coming to mind are firstly; the N5800 has seemed to consistently outperform the O3400 from a ground launch, and second Boosted Darts, particularly the Super Loki, has a very low burn time of 2.1s, why is this?

It does in theory on calculations on paper to computers. This is due to drag increasing by the velocity in rocket science.
[drag proportional to velocity squared]

But in practical applications, you need to have controlled flight to gain from that lower drag to keep outside forces like wind from reducing your altitude and changing your attitude and trajectory from what you planed to do.

In what we do in hobby rocketry there is a Sweet Spot in-between fastest and slowest.
 
My TAP "strongly" recommended that I get my on-the-rail stability margin under 2 and use a high thrust motor to avoid "weather cocking". It hurt to trim two inches off the fin tips, especially since I had managed to get a nice paint job done for once, but the flight was successful.
That's surprising. 2 cal is nowhere near where there's serious risk of weathercocking, and it's not uncommon for people to want at least that much to account for possible CP shifts going supersonic (which may or may not be a factor in an L3 flight).
 
My TAP "strongly" recommended that I get my on-the-rail stability margin under 2 and use a high thrust motor to avoid "weather cocking". It hurt to trim two inches off the fin tips, especially since I had managed to get a nice paint job done for once, but the flight was successful.
The whole TAP process needs to be revisited and sranfatdized. That's a ridiculous request.
 
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That's surprising. 2 cal is nowhere near where there's serious risk of weathercocking, and it's not uncommon for people to want at least that much to account for possible CP shifts going supersonic (which may or may not be a factor in an L3 flight).
I think a factor that entered into his recommendation was our almost constant winds here in Central Texas. He wanted me to actually be able to launch, sometime in my lifetime... :)
 
OK, I'm sitting waiting for a plane, so a little longer explanation.

I build everything in OpenRocket first, including reasonable weight estimates if necessary for electronics, hardware, paint, recovery, etc. Once I have a reasonably close model in OR, if there isn't already a "ballast" mass object in the nose cone, I add one. With the motor I care about most (or a "worst case") loaded, I look at stability.

Everyone needs to stop thinking about and talking about "calibers" of stability. With calibers, a short, fat rocket is perfectly stable with considerably less than one caliber, while a long, skinny rocket is liable to be unstable with more than one caliber of stability. Percentage of airframe length automatically accounts for those differences. An accepted rule attributed to historic sounding rocket use is between 8 and 15 percent of airframe length. I've done a lot of searching and can't find an original source, but it seems to be well accepted in the hobby rocketry community. I normally target 10-12 percent.

So, back to my OR sim model. I start clicking the up arrow next to the mass in the edit dialogue for the ballast mass object.

If the apogee goes down when I add mass, the rocket is over optimum mass, and I will generally want it to be lighter. If stability is acceptable, I look at ways to take mass out of it, possibly including redistributing mass to get the stability closer to the center of the target range. This can include lighter or thinner fins, lighter recovery components, OCDing on centering rings, MMT length, etc., lighter electronics (smaller battery). If stability is inadequate, I can make changes to fin size or shape, try to move weight (like electronics and/or recovery gear) forward (into the nose cone, if necessary.

If the apogee goes up when I add mass, the rocket is under optimum mass, and depending on what my goals are for the rocket, I may want it to be heavier or leave it alone. If it's basically a fun rocket and stability is good, that's fine. If it's meant for maximum apogee, I'll look at adding ballast to find optimum mass, the range where adding or subtracting a little bit of mass makes little to no difference in apogee. This is where judgement comes into it, and it becomes an iterative process. You also need to pay attention to rail exit speed, speed at deployment (if using motor eject), and descent speed with your intended parachute size. You might end up having some of that additional mass take the form of heavier recovery gear, such as anchor hardware, shock cord, parachute size, etc., or overall heavier construction like bulkheads, fins, motor retention, etc.

If optimum mass is reached with a lot of nose weight and stability factor is thus excessive, you can look at moving mass back into the airframe or ebay. You can also look at reducing the fin size, or maybe reducing the rear overhang so they are less vulnerable to impacts on landing. You can also look at going from three fins to four. Straight scaling of the fins to 75% and adding one will shift the CP aft, further improving stability, while also making them less vulnerable to landing damage and less likely to flutter.

I could type more, but if you go explore everything I discussed above, you'll figure out other stuff that applies on your own rocket and you can try whatever you can think of.

Just remember that the "optimum" design will be different for different motors. Very long motors may actually extend forward of the c.g., so as you go to the longest motors, you actually improve stability. Thus, assuming that the largest motor is the worst case for stability may not be correct. Also, some propellants are much denser than others, so not all reloads in the same case will give the same stability results. If you plan to fly a rocket on a range of motors, account for the lower thrust of some motors. Optimum mass with a bigger motor may not get off the rail safely with a smaller motor.
 
It does in theory on calculations on paper to computers. This is due to drag increasing by the velocity in rocket science.
[drag proportional to velocity squared]

But in practical applications, you need to have controlled flight to gain from that lower drag to keep outside forces like wind from reducing your altitude and changing your attitude and trajectory from what you planed to do.

In what we do in hobby rocketry there is a Sweet Spot in-between fastest and slowest.
The first obstacle to controlled flight is slow speed off the end of the rail. One could use a longer rail and/or select a motor with a strong initial burst of thrust. I suppose a long enough burn at slow speeds might also allow divergence from a vertical path. I don't know how long or how slow that would be. Maybe something could be done using one of those tiny stabilizing devices used on some RC planes and quadcopters.
 
I think a factor that entered into his recommendation was our almost constant winds here in Central Texas. He wanted me to actually be able to launch, sometime in my lifetime... :)
I live in southern New Mexico. I once had a student who dropped out of school for a semester because the mobile home he lived in blew over -- with him in it. My comment was based on my experience here.
 
That happened to a mobile home that was along the bus ride to school in Vermont when I was in high school, but that's not a particularly windy area. Still, I believe you that it's windy in southern New Mexico.
 

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