Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe....

[Neutrodyne]

Has there ever been any attempt at making flying models of the "V-1" "Buzz Bomb" pulse jet missile, the ME-163 Komet rocket plane or the Bachem(sp?) "Natter" solid rocket powered - solid rocket firing fighter plane from World War two - as boost gliders?
I would have to dig for scale dravings (my best references were lost in a basement flood years ago) but there seems no more of a challenge to making these fly than there was to Klingon spacecraft from Star Trek...
The Natter was designed for a vertical (or near vertical) takeoff, a quick pass through bomber formations on the way up and one on the way down with parachute recovery for the pilot. The V-1 never was designed for vertical flight, barely powerful enough to fly level. The ME-163 did a horizontal takeoff but due to fuel capacity limits did almost all climing nearly vertically into the oncoming bombers, made a few passes to exhaust the volatile fuel and glided in to to attempt landing on a skid. Have any of these been attempted as scale or semi-scale rockets? I have seen the plywood (number escapes me) Volksjaeger "Hitler Youth" jet plane modeled with a ducted prop motor simulating the jet , but only as an R/C plane.
I'd think an Me-163 or a Natter would be a cool BG, especially since that's what each was made to do originally.

 

[eugenefl]

<a href=https://www.noris-raketen.de">Das Modell</a> of Germany makes the <a href="https://www.noris-raketen.de/html/profi.htm">Bachem Natter</a> and the <a href="https://www.noris-raketen.de/html/profi.htm">V-1/Fi 103</a> model rockets. On those same pages you will find a functional Energia-Buran, US Space Shuttle, Saturn V, and some other great model rockets that we should already have in the US for us to play with.

A good TRF buddy of mine Leo was down in Florida visiting us. He was kind enough to bring me a Das Modell catalog as a gift. On the rear cover (I believe) there is a picture of a group of rocketeers that pioneered the hobby in Germany. Well, Mr. Leo himself is in that picture! Very cool stuff! You should check out his <a href="https://leo.nutz.de/">website</a>.

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by eugenefl
<a href=https://www.noris-raketen.de">Das Modell</a> of Germany makes the <a href="https://www.noris-raketen.de/html/profi.htm">Bachem Natter</a> and the <a href="https://www.noris-raketen.de/html/profi.htm">V-1/Fi 103</a> model rockets. On those same pages you will find a functional Energia-Buran, US Space Shuttle, Saturn V, and some other great model rockets that we should already have in the US for us to play with.

They don't glide though.

A good TRF buddy of mine Leo was down in Florida visiting us. He was kind enough to bring me a Das Modell catalog as a gift. On the rear cover (I believe) there is a picture of a group of rocketeers that pioneered the hobby in Germany. Well, Mr. Leo himself is in that picture! Very cool stuff! You should check out his <a href="https://leo.nutz.de/">website</a>.

This guy's kit collection is phenomenal!

 

[MetMan]

Here's areview on EMRR:

https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/scratch/v1_buzz_bomb.html

 

[adrian]

I haven't seen the Das Modell Natter, although the picture looks a lot better than my scratch-built effort!

The Natter was never a glider. It was practically a manned missile. It was to be launched vertically from a launch tower. Once in the air, the pilot was to fly towards Allied bombers, let off a salvo of rockets, then bail out. The aircraft was designed to detach the whole nose section, the pilot would effectively fall out, then nose, main body, and pilot would all return to earth on separate parachutes. It ought to be possible to arrange for a model rocket to recover the same way, preferably with a model of the pilot.

I have seen the Das Modell V-1 in action. It was unstable. Mind you, Das Modell's web page indicates that it's meant for their D7-3 motor whereas I saw it being used with an Estes D12. I don't know the mass of the D7-3 so I don't know what that did to the CG.

There's a balsa and tissue model of the Me 163 Komet for use with Rapier or Jetex motors. A quick Google search turns up Sam's Models.

 

[Damage...]

The Das Modell Natter I saw was also unstable. May have been the same problem.

Which was a shame, as the guy built a scale launch tower to go with it and entered it in a national Sport Scale competition. It was superb!

He was running second until it spun in...

I'll try and dig out some pics.

Damage...

 

[vjp]

Here's an actual rocket-powered ME-163, with video:

https://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/rc02.htm

 

[adrian]

Originally posted by Damage...
The Das Modell Natter I saw was also unstable. May have been the same problem.

You should have seen the first flight of my crude version! Conditions were a bit windy. The model went up, did a roll and turn, flew horizontally cross-wind, then crashed.

I wasn't sure whether this was instability or a weird weathercock, so I covered both possibilities by adding more nose weight to put the CG forward of the wings, then only flying it on calm days. It has flown four times without any problems. I'd imagine that the Das Modell Natter would benefit from extra nose weight, too. The EMRR review of the V-1 cited by MetMan also mentions adding a lot of nose weight to put the CG forward of the wings.

I've found the specifications for the D7-3 on Das Modell's website. It weighs 43g. The Estes D12-3 weighs 42.2g. So using a D12-3 instead of a D7-3 should have a negligible, favourable effect on the CG.

 

[cls]

there are some really neat "what-if" rocket models on www.luft46.com.

there are some great A-4 and A-9/A-10 views.

one of my favorites is F25 & F55 (Custom Tristar anyone?)

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by cls

one of my favorites is F25 & F55 (Custom Tristar anyone?)

There's a definate resemblance to the F55.

 

[nomopbo]

This is actually RC, but considering your mention of Luftwaffe, you have GOT to see the Helispy on this page!
https://www.micropilot.com/Projects/CustProjects.html

 

[adrian]

Originally posted by cls
there are some really neat "what-if" rocket models on www.luft46.com.
there are some great A-4 and A-9/A-10 views.
one of my favorites is F25 & F55 (Custom Tristar anyone?)

Been there, done that.
I liked the F25 too, and did a bit of hunting for other pictures. The odd thing is that I did find a few, and no two were the same! Some lacked the wingtip finlets; some had a second, identical tail unit below the body. Dan Johnson, who owns the Luft46 site, emailed me a diagram of another variant which he has kindly allowed me to copy here.

Here are my F25 and F55, based on the Luft46 diagrams.

Another good source is the Luftarchiv site. It's in German. For rockets, look at "Flugkörper". "Luft" is "air", "Boden" is "ground".

 

[astronboy]

I have a rocsim of the 'Feurlillie' F55. The modekl is based on theBT-55 and the black 'bail-out' nosecone. The boat tail is a pain, and I was unable top Rocsim the wing tips correctly, but it will fly!!

One real bear is that the actual rocket has 4 small motors sticking out of the back of the boat tail... this would be murder to model .

Fred

 

[astronboy]

Ooops!! I forgot the Rocsim file!

 

[graylensman]

I've had Luft46 bookmarked for some time. Great site.

Adrian, how did your F55 fly?

Anybody here model a staged A9/A10 stack? It's on my list of ultimate projects...

 

[adrian]

Shouldn't the Bail Out nose cone go into BT-60? I used BT-80, partly to allow room for the quad cluster, and partly to make it somewhere near the same scale as my F25 built from BT-55.

The boat-tail with quad cluster was indeed tricky, even though I approximated by using a paper cone. I believe someone on TRF has a program or something to draw cone transitions with elliptical holes for motor mounts, but I hadn't seen it when I built the F55. There was also a version powered by a single liquid-fuelled motor, so a single-engine model could be accurate.

F55 flies well on four C6-5's. For some reason, it damaged one of the vertical fins. That's despite it having a 24" parachute, and I've got another rocket with long, swept fins that weighs about the same and routinely recovers on an 18" parachute without damage. I may build new vertical fins using plywood.

I haven't tried flying my A9/A10 with a real motor in the A9 yet. I suspect that when the A9 motor lights, it will wreck the A10's nose. But I did load the A9 with a dummy motor (a used 18mm motor filled with clay) and launched the A10 with the A9 held in place by tape, to check that it would be stable. The A9 has flown alone several times on B6-4's.

 

[astronboy]

Yes, the bail out cone is BT-60... I just cannot type!!

Fred

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by graylensman
I've had Luft46 bookmarked for some time. Great site.

Adrian, how did your F55 fly?

Anybody here model a staged A9/A10 stack? It's on my list of ultimate projects...

Here's another A9/A10 stack:
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/descon11/amerika.html

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by astronboy
Ooops!! I forgot the Rocsim file!

What version of RockSim did you create that in? My copy complained about some missing components, and crashed

 

[astronboy]

I used Rocsim 7

 

[cls]

Adrian, your 4x cluster F55 is really excellent!! that does it, now I have to build one too! maybe next week. what did you use for the nose cone and tail cone?


I found with both the Custom Tristar and my 4x upscale that the end plates are indeed delicate. the fins and endplates on my 4" Tristar are made of 1/8" aircraft ply with a layer of glass - still the joint is weak and even glass fillets don't help much - eventually the end plates break. not sure what to do except put a bunch more glass on for reinforcement. maybe this delicacy is why that configuration wasn't developed? maybe that's why Jayhawk has those funky angled-in finplates?

 

[adrian]

I saw the Descon entry and exchanged e-mail with Louis. My A10 uses a modified version of his piston with a nose cone that supports, rather than encloses, the A9. The A10 is powered by two C6-3's and a C6-0, the latter ducted through the piston.

The F55's nose is a stock Estes Phoenix type. The tail cone is rolled from heavy paper.

I'd like to know why that fin configuration is weak. I want to use it for my own designs because the rocket lies fairly flat, so it's easier to pack and less likely to get damaged in transit. Maybe I'll use rear ejection next time, then the rocket will land nose first...

The vertical fins on my F55 are angled slightly inwards because that's what the diagram on the Luft46 page shows. I think it helps with stability. Imagine that the rocket yaws to port. The port fin is now straighter into the airflow, the starboard fin is at more of an angle to the airflow, so the starboard fin gets more drag and is pulled back into line. This piece of weirdness in Descon 9 uses the same principle.

 

[cls]

I'd like to know why that fin configuration is weak.

my best guess ...

even on the LPR Tristar, all the damage seems to happen on landing. I guess I should have used a larger parachute but that's not always practical.

however, the upscale Tristar, on its last flight with I161, under boost the glass delaminated from the fin and the end plate came loose. it stayed connected but wobbly through the flight and landing, it's repairable, but there is obviously a lot of force on those big fins & plates way out there on long lever arms. it would probably work just as well with fins & plates 1/3 the size. but those just don't look as cool!

 

[graylensman]

Originally posted by adrian
My A10 uses a modified version of his piston with a nose cone that supports, rather than encloses, the A9.

The few diagrams I've seen of the A9/A10 show a "nested" configuration. I don't know why the other modeler opted for an enclosed A9.

Also, to be overly picky, the A10 was envisioned to fly on a single upscaled A4-type engine. Does Rocsim show this model to be unable to fly on a single motor (D or E, for example)?

Just curious.

 

[adrian]

The original A10 wasn't designed to eject a parachute.

The C6-0, ducted through the piston, should ignite the A9's motor. The C6-3's should then kick out the piston and parachute. The test flight proved that three C6's are sufficient to give the A10 a stable boost flight and that the ejection system works.

 

[Stymye]

The few diagrams I've seen of the A9/A10 show a "nested" configuration. I don't know why the other modeler opted for an enclosed A9

there were 2 variations
the early concept was fully enclosed , the later variant was nested

 

[g_boxwood]

Originally posted by Neutrodyne
Has there ever been any attempt at making flying models of the "V-1" "Buzz Bomb" pulse jet missile, the ME-163 Komet rocket plane [...] I'd think an Me-163 or a Natter would be a cool BG, especially since that's what each was made to do originally.

I'm in the process of scratch-building an R/C 163 from Model Airplane News (highly modified) plans. The original model flies on a 2-stroke glow engine and has some useful and not-that-common features such as leading edge fixed slots and radio operated dolly jettison. Not all the available 163 kits/plans feature those options (slots are usually simulated and the dolly falls thanks to gravity).

I modified the plans to improve boost performance and *integrity*. 'Cauz I'd like to put it under rocket power, AT SU reloads are sweet (the guy in the video flew his one with a H45) !!

If you're interested I can provide pictures and details of the ongoing building and some thoughts about it... only if someone is *really* interested (it may turn out to be very boring).

 

[rstaff3]

Of course we'd be interested! I suggest a new thread though.

 

[g_boxwood]

Thanks rstaff ! Since I've postponed the project for a while I'd like to start a new thread about it as things get closer to completion (as I always try to do)... All I can provide now are a few horrible pictures I took of the wing being built just prior to fully sheet the bottom; I had a terrible digi camera few months ago...

 

[g_boxwood]

Just another partial view...