square leading edges on fins?

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Hmmm ...

I spend way too much time on my fins.

And as @Rschub implied above in Post #20 -- landing hazards seem to be greedy bastards -- the more time I've got invested in a rocket or the more money in electronics, motor cases and other parts, the more likely some landing hazard is to reach out and snag my rocket !

Trees, ponds, swamps, power lines and paved roads are all out to get me !

Maybe I should be flying square-edged fins without any electronics or reloadable motor cases ?

-- kjh :)

p.s. I did compromise when building my new BMS School Rocket, "Hedley" ... the 1/8 inch plywood fins are only SLIGHTLY rounded on the leading and trailing edges :)
 
I hope I will be forgiven for not getting these in the correct order.
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, just for maximum noise and excitement at the flight line.
Sounds like a real answer, and hard to argue with. However, I have found that, at rocket launches, nothing beats the excitement of a rocket losing it's fins at about 100 feet of altitude and whirling around, with everyone trying to guess which direction it would be pointing if it straightened out. Not really my kind of excitement, though. A low flight by a 5 foot, medium or high powered rocket with no deployment, plunging straight into the ground nearby at a good clip was pretty exciting, too.
Please post links to where I can buy this edge stock for a BT-60 or BT-80 rocket's fin leading and trailing edge. It would rock for a scale look, as it is not going to Affect the price of the motor I need to use.

Edge stock I have used on RC planes is much too big for Mid-to smaller High power and lower rockets.
I admit I was thinking mostly of the bigger rockets, and in that case, Bob's your uncle. Just now, I was poking around on the net. I saw egregiously expensive, 3/16" rounded leading edge stock on eBay, and cheaper, thicker rounded stock elsewehre. I saw 1/8" t.e. stock that could be glued together to make symmetrically beveled 1/4 inch stock. With a simple balsa stripper, one could narrow the t.e. stock and glue together to get 3/16" or maybe thinner beveled stuff. Here are some sources for that sort of thing:
1/8 thick t.e. https://www.nationalbalsa.com/products/181236te

https://specializedbalsa.com/products/lead_trail_aileron.php

https://balsausa.com/products/balsa-trailing-edges?variant=43671246700834

However, in my next post I intend to show a method to bevel fins consistently and quickly.

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A couple of things before we address the OP's fin topic.
1) Me and West 105/205 is like a three year old and maple syrup. Oy.
2) Me and West 105/205 with colloidal silica is like a 1st grader and library paste. Vey.
Unless you were wearing gloves, that's not very healthy. In the case of the coloidal silica, I strongly advise you to wear a really good dust mask as well. That stuff is nasty. It does nice things to the consistency of the epoxy, though. Other things I've used to thicken epoxy have been wood flour and something called plastic mini (or micro?) fibers. You can use phenolic or glass microballoons if you don't need ultimate strength. That will come out lighter and be easier to sand, but it's not as nice for the consistency. It works, though. Above based on a little boatbuilding experience. SIMPLE boatbuilding, I'm not one of those expert craftsmen who can make a Whitehall boat that sells for $15,000. But my boats floated and worked ok.
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Performance failure mode: Poor performance due to drag and to fin flutter
1) Fins should be tapered root to tip (reduces weight and drag and if I am not wrong eliminates a resonant frequency which limits flutter).
Yup. Keeps the stiffness where you need it, at the root, while reducing the weight out near the tip, where it matters most. I assume you mean tapered in thickness as well.
2) Fins should have an airfoil shape to minimize drag, appropriate for the rocket (rounded front and tapered back for subsonic, wedge for supersonic, if I am not wrong - if you have superior knowledge please correct me).
I'm absolutely sure you're right about subsonic stuff, and I've heard the same thing about supersonic. For subsonic, there is no harm in making the fins as much as 10 percent thick, if they're in a good airfoil shape. A good airfoil shape can be an ellipse, with the high point 20 or 25 percent of chord back from the leading edge, with tangent lines going back to a thin trailing edge. Other, more complicated shapes may be a little lower drag, but that one's not bad. The airfoil in the following picture, by the famous Mark Drela, is VERY close to this shape and looking at it is how I concluded that the ellipse and tangent lines were a good shape. This foil was meant for low Reynolds numbers, but it's still reasonably low drag, according to Drela's Xfoil program, at Reynolds numbers of 1 and 2 million. Assuming you don't make one extra swipe with the sandpaper. For extra stiffness and strength, doubling the thickness probably wouldn't hurt much at all at those relatively high Reynolds numbers. If memory serves, a good approximation for Reynolds number at sea level conditions and reasonably comfortable temperatures is the chord in inches times the length in the direction of flow (fin chord, in this case) times 532. So a 4 inch wide fin going 500 feet per second would have a Reynolds number of a bit over a million.

In the case of supersonic rockets, I wonder if anyone has explored using the Whitcomb area rule for small rockets that reach high Mach numbers at low altitudes, as many hobby rockets do. We might see something that looks like a V2, except with a bit of hollowing out of the body where the fins are. The F-102 was unable to break Mach 1 until the fuselage was narrowed like that where the wings were. You can see the difference here:

Certification Failure Mode: Certification failure for the fins is a fin breaking (in landing) or shearing off (in flight), another failure mode is losing the rocket
1) The more meat you have on the fin, the less likely will be a break upon landing
2) Fins shearing off is unlikely for any rocket for L1 or L2 if the fins are properly filleted.
3) Square (low aerodynamic performance) fins keep the rocket low and slow and increase the chance of finding the thing after the flight.

So if I had been thinking about L1, I would not have tapered an profiled the fins so excessively. I'm an engineer, so I think that it was my natural prediliction towards aero performance that had me do so much work. We'll see how much of an error I made.
If L1 had not required a motor of at least a minimum size, you could have used a smaller motor to control the altitude. Maybe you should carry water ballast that drains when the chute opens, rather than messing up the fins. Or just put an o-ring on the outside of the nose. THAT ought to slow it down.
Jeeps are not meant to go fast. The more squarer, the more betterer.
Tell that to the driver of the ones that pass me on the highway going 75 mph. I doubt if most of the ones I see ever go further off-road than someone's lawn. On the other hand, I drove a little sedan up here once to watch hawks migrating when my s.o. didn't feel like a hike:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/m9f1cub8MLLBPit78
I find that trees like the taste of really streamlined fins.
Hard to argue with that.
 
I must be a unique kind of heathen, in that I will run sims of a possible build and shape the fins based on what fits the potential motors (essentially the SU motor delays) that I want to fly. Rail speed will dictate the motor, fin shape more the delay. I've never run a sim where I see enough rail speed gain with a rounded/airfoiled fin to be able to go with a lower thrust/smaller motor.
 
I think that flutter is caused when the resonant frequency of the fins matches the aerodynamic resonance (which i think is the vortex shedding frequency). If the frequencies (fin resonant frequency and fin vortex shedding) I don't believe that you get flutter. So by itself, I suspect that the answer is no. If you have a frequency match, yes.
Whether or not the frequencies match, which is a good point, alternating vortex shedding produces a fair amount of vibration. Ever been in a car on the highway with a roof rack with round bars? They can have an annoying hum. Wrapping a spiral of string around the bar de-synchronizes the shedding, so it doesn't happen at the same time all the way across the bar. You can find similar spirals on smokestacks and car radio antennas. The same spiral trick can help calm down vibrating ropes or straps.
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If you're worried about breaking the fins, leave the trailing edges square. Rounding trailing edges are draggy, anyway. The low drag shape for trailing edges is tapering gently to a sharp edge, or to a squared off edge. I admit I don't know if a squared off trailing edge has more or less drag than a rounded one, but I'm sure rounded ones have plenty.
 
It's suggested above that square leading edges may inhibit fins' performance in their role as a wing, which is most of how they generate stability, rather than by their contribution to base drag.
Either way, that is not factored into OR’s calculations, and I would expect the same for Rocksim.

Fin profile affects drag calculations *only*.
 
Easy way to bevel some fins in a hurry. This example is for 1/8" thick fins. The fin's leading edge is positioned the given distance from the edge of the bench, and parallel to it. The tape on the sanding block is supposed to be equal to the thickness of the sandpaper, but you could leave it off and move the fin back a little. After beveling one side, the fin should be flipped over to bevel the other side. At that point, about .025" of flat leading edge will be left, which can be rounded off if you want. Fin is shown at larger than scale thickness. That wasn't so hard, was it?

There is nothing sacred about this angle. You could eyeball some other angle and, as long as you positioned everything parallel to the edge of the bench, at the same distances each time, no one would be any wiser.

finbevelsetup.jpg
BTW, most profiles have almost exactly the same lift curve slope, so it's reasonable not to count the airfoil shape when figuring stability. It doesn't matter all that much unless the rocket is going sideways enough to stall the fins. SOME airfoils may have a dead spot around 0 degrees angle of attack, but I don't think the ones mentioned above do. Not at rocket Reynolds numbers, anyway.
 
In the case of supersonic rockets, I wonder if anyone has explored using the Whitcomb area rule for small rockets that reach high Mach numbers at low altitudes, as many hobby rockets do. We might see something that looks like a V2, except with a bit of hollowing out of the body where the fins are. The F-102 was unable to break Mach 1 until the fuselage was narrowed like that where the wings were. You can see the difference here:


Fine, except that going MD the full length will be even better than being bigger than MD and then shrinking down to MD at the fins and back up after them.
 
Not sure I follow how that works, since it wouldn't be anything like the area rule. I'm assuming MD means minimum diameter or something?
 
Point 2: Had not considered how square edges might change Cp. Do they? Can this be quantified?
Aside from sims (which may not show it unless you model REALLY thick fins), logically it does. Square edges cause more drag (as noted airfoiling gives more altitude because of reduced drag) and fins are in the rear, so more drag in the rear moves cp back.
 
I build them the way I build them. We all fly our own flight. Often, when I decide to leave edges square, I will paint them in a contrasting color. (Black on a yellow or white rocket, for example). Just me.
 
One must also consider the relationship of lift vs. AoA with a square vs. rounded LE and square vs. thin TE. If the airfoil is more efficient at generating lift as AoA departs from zero, that will likely dwarf the tiny corrective moment caused by the additional drag of a square TE moving off center.
 
Aside from sims (which may not show it unless you model REALLY thick fins), logically it does. Square edges cause more drag (as noted airfoiling gives more altitude because of reduced drag) and fins are in the rear, so more drag in the rear moves cp back.
Unless the square leading edge interferes with the lift curve of the fins, which function primarily by lift. I don't know if I've seen any aero data for rectangular airfoils. The video at the start of this thread suggests that some strange things happen with rectangular foils. Consider that a fin might reach a maximum lift coefficient of 1 while the rocket is only yawed 15 or 20 degrees. That sideways force is acting at a much greater distance from the c.g. than the aft force of the drag.
 
Are we talking about optimizing for performance, or about getting the same performance with a cheaper, lighter motor?

Just a few minutes with a sanding block or plane will reduce drag. I wouldn't be surprised if getting rid of the separated flow that square leading edges cause would actually make the fins lift curve steeper, allowing them to be smaller and still provide adequate stability.

People who want it to be pretty should study this:
https://charlesriverrc.org/articles...ithout-templates/markdrela_airfoilshaping.pdf
I've done this with a sort of elliptical planform, but I bet it's a lot easier with straight leading edges.

It's often handy to use a flexible ruler to draw a straight line with a pencil over the contour of what you're shaping. Look from the side, and you can get a good idea of the cross sectional shape. I found this handy when reconstructing a destroyed wingtip. Casting shadows from something straight, using a single light source, can also be helpful.

People who don't trust their judgement could at least round edges consistently with a router bit. Or glue on half-round mouldings.

People who want beveled leading and trailing edges could glue trailing edge stock together.

If you just want to bludgeon the air, there are always those hideous flying saucer things. Or Jeeps. ;-)

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Boy, this really pisses you off for some reason. Why does it even matter?! Go fly your rocket and have fun. I'll fly mine and have fun. I could fly a rocket with rounded fins and the same rocket with square fins and wouldn't notice and difference. Calm down and go have some fun. Sheesh.
 
Jeeps rock.
I bought a Jeep a few years ago when I decided I wanted to spend more time camping and driving Jeep roads. The Jeep has its own qualities and it's own appeal. It is not very aerodynamic but it still drives reasonably well on the highway. It is just good enough on pavement that I can put up with it when not on trails.

As for fins- when I started building rockets the instructions and various literature said to sand airfoils in the fins so I did, at least I sharpened the leading and trailing edges a little bit. I learned that these edges were prone to damage during landings, handling and storage. These days I round all of the edges. I think square edges are probably easier but again probably less durable than rounded, so I round the edges to hopefully keep them looking a little better. The way I paper my fins I have to do something to the edges and rounding is probably easiest. I don't worry so much about aerodynamics- most of my rockets go high enough for me.
 
I think papering of fins is largely done only on balsa (and maybe basswood) fins. The plywood fins on your DX3 should not require papering IMO... Plenty of DX3's have been used for L1 cert flights, and I would bet that most if not all of them eschewed a layer of paper on the fins.

Two DX3 builds (quick search, I am sure there are more); neither one of which applied any surface reinforcement to the external portions of the fins:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/l1-l2-super-dx3-build-after-the-fact.145067/#post-1770924

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...and-plywood-kit-38mm-mmt.147205/#post-1802440
 
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Boy, this really pisses you off for some reason. Why does it even matter?! Go fly your rocket and have fun. I'll fly mine and have fun. I could fly a rocket with rounded fins and the same rocket with square fins and wouldn't notice and difference. Calm down and go have some fun. Sheesh.
You do have a point, I suppose. I was going to claim it merely has me mystified, but I guess there's more to it than that.
To the OP, love to see pics of yours!!!
I don't have a lot to show, as it happens. You can't see it, but the little rocket glider had nicely shaped wings and tail. The ugly delta glider's wing is pretty thin, but the leading edge is rounded. You can kind of see the shape of the fins on the regular rocket. The ugly glider is a sort of make it up as I go along project, and is intended as a test bed. Since it's ugly, I won't get upset if it crashes. If I build another, it will likely look better. And be lighter.
 

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Aside from sims (which may not show it unless you model REALLY thick fins), logically it does. Square edges cause more drag (as noted airfoiling gives more altitude because of reduced drag) and fins are in the rear, so more drag in the rear moves cp back.
The simulators do not move the CP due to the fin edge, because logically, it doesn't. Axial drag stability is not a thing, especially in the Barrowman methods. It's all about lift and normal forces.
 
The simulators do not move the CP due to the fin edge, because logically, it doesn't. Axial drag stability is not a thing, especially in the Barrowman methods. It's all about lift and normal forces.
Interesting. I mean if your fins were 4 inches thick with square edges, obviously that should move the Cp, however, the sims (at least Rocksim) using the default method may have figured it was negligible and unlikely to be so extreme. Probably along the lines of base drag.
 
I also hate square. It just looks like a heck of couldn’t be bothered.

For me it's so simple. Square edges are ugly, round edges are pretty. Pretty's better. :wavingsanta: ;)

I tend to agree on both aesthetic grounds, and because as an engineer I suspect that the fin shape has a significant effect on the aerodynamics (both drag and possibly effectiveness in promoting stability)

Among other things, I've been a control systems engineer. One way of measuring flow in pipes is to put a spool (short section) of pipe in-line, with a triangular "bluff body" across the spool, equipped with pressure sensors. So in a 6 inch ID pipe, the bluff body might be 3/4" or so wide, IIRC. One flat of the triangle faces the oncoming flow. If the flow his high enough, there is a linear approximate relation between the frequency of the vortices shed (these are called "Vortex Shedding Meters") and the flow. There is some variation and so a quantity called the Strouhal number is calculated and the flow rate corrected for that variation.

The point of the story is that the fin vortices are promoted by a square edge, and the frequency may increase with speed. If so, it could be possible for a rocket to pass through a velocity band that caused vortices and could cause problems.

Then again, Tim Milligan has launched more rockets that I ever will consider, and he LIKES the square fin finish. Takes all kinds!
 
I tend to agree on both aesthetic grounds, and because as an engineer I suspect that the fin shape has a significant effect on the aerodynamics (both drag and possibly effectiveness in promoting stability)

Among other things, I've been a control systems engineer. One way of measuring flow in pipes is to put a spool (short section) of pipe in-line, with a triangular "bluff body" across the spool, equipped with pressure sensors. So in a 6 inch ID pipe, the bluff body might be 3/4" or so wide, IIRC. One flat of the triangle faces the oncoming flow. If the flow his high enough, there is a linear approximate relation between the frequency of the vortices shed (these are called "Vortex Shedding Meters") and the flow. There is some variation and so a quantity called the Strouhal number is calculated and the flow rate corrected for that variation.
Fun fact, the first-gen Mitsubishi Eclipse used that principle in its airflow meter.

I'm also on board with the additional benefit of rounded fins mentioned by another poster. The square edge presents a sharper profile to any object that might ding the fin, so a square edge can be expected to get dinged up more noticeably, faster than a rounded edge that presents a blunted profile to potentially damaging strikes.
 
Interesting. I mean if your fins were 4 inches thick with square edges, obviously that should move the Cp, however, the sims (at least Rocksim) using the default method may have figured it was negligible and unlikely to be so extreme. Probably along the lines of base drag.
Yes, I imagine the CP would move because 4-inch thick blocks of wood attached to the tail of the rocket would not qualify as fins :)

Barrowman fins are flat plates, more or less aligned with the axis of the rocket.

Without any fins, the only component producing a normal force at small angles of attack would be the nose and Barrowman CP would be somewhere along the nose ( 2 * Ln / 3 ( Cone ) -or- 0.466 * Ln ( Ogive ) -or- Ln / 2 ( Parabola )

Maybe ?

-- kjh

EDIT: cleaned up Barrowman Xn for three nose shapes
 
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Either way, that is not factored into OR’s calculations, and I would expect the same for Rocksim.

Fin profile affects drag calculations *only*.
Okay, maybe dumb question. Does increasing tail drag affect stability? If I understand you right, fin profile affecting drag only would (at least per OR simulator) decrease altitude but leave stability unaffected.

Seems like @Daddyisabar ‘s Tapeworm mainly was relying on tail drag, but that might be an “evil misleading myth spawned by the Sith to confuse the unwary.”
 
Okay, maybe dumb question. Does increasing tail drag affect stability? If I understand you right, fin profile affecting drag only would (at least per OR simulator) decrease altitude but leave stability unaffected.
In real life: yes, somewhat, but let's not dredge up the whole base drag discussion again, as it's been beaten to death a hundred times already in other threads. Anyway, the small amount of base drag from normal-thickness fins should have negligible effect on stability in the real world.
 
Regarding the original question, lots of data shows that compared to square fins, for subsonic rocketry (which is most of low power, except for Estes Mosquito, which is frequently transdimensional), tapered fins are ideal for altitude but highly prone (when maximally tapered) to breakage. Rounded fins are pretty darn good for altitude, much more durable than tapered, and easy to do.

Squared fins only main advantage is aesthetically they look “right” with certain rockets. Example is the Flutter By.


1715219546525.jpeg

I paper a lot of fins. I do a full wrap of everything but root edge. It is as do-able with rounded as square fins, in fact, it’s a bit of a challenging KEEPING the “squared” outline with papering.

Since rounding is so easy, to me the only reason for a typical rocketeer to keep square edges is the aesthetics, or as previously mentioned if you WANT to add drag to keep altitude down.
 
I think papering of fins is largely done only on balsa (and maybe basswood) fins. The plywood fins on your DX3 should not require papering IMO...
papering fins has at least two benefits.

1. As you mentioned, for balsa and maybe basswood, provides strength. Liquid glued on fins provide a lot more than l adhesive backed label paper, but both work. Concur likely not significantly help for most plywood fins.

2. Primary reason for me is saves you from the Carpenters’ Wood Filler dance, papering is a nice shortcut to a good finish.
 
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