Spaceport America Cup 2023

[kavy8]

Best of luck to anyone at SAC this year! Would love to hear stories from the folks on site. So glad the livestream is up and running well today, making up for some of my FOMO!

 

[JackC]

The launch team here insists that you install 2 igniters into the motor when you are ready to fly. I used masking tape to keep the igniter heads together and twisted the wires around each other. Then you hook both sets of the leads to the alligator clips. They had only one misfire out of 76 launches. That is pretty impressive.

The livestream of the launch is a great service and is a wonderful way for everyone to experience the flights.

Watch out for the mesquite bushes. If you’re wearing sneakers and step on them, you might as well had been barefoot because they will punch through the shoe and injure you. Hiking boots are mandatory.

They use Wilson launch boxes.

They have heavy duty Coker pads that are mounted on concrete slabs. The 1515 rails are mounted to heavy duty aluminum bases that allow you to set your launch angle (they prefer 4 degrees). The rails are 17 feet long. It’s solid as a rock.

I learned that being a flyer of record comes with some benefits and a lot of challenges. It helps your team when you’re going through the main safety inspection but you may end up being in charge of the team at the launch site when one of your charges has to be taken to the hospital due to illness.

The desert down here is worse than Black Rock or Brothers as to wind gusts from noon to 6 pm. They had steady winds at 22 mph with gusts to 37 mph on Wednesday and Thursday.

A community college team had a great flight to near its target altitude and recovered the rocket with no damage. The other teams cheered for it as spunky underdogs because they had an excellent payload design, a beautiful, fast looking rocket and a killer paint job while “only” being community college students!

It’s a huge launch with a lot of people (1850 students and at least 800 support people, armed guards and Spaceport suits, along with several vendors. Blue Origin is the primary sponsor for the event.

 

[kavy8]

The launch team here insists that you install 2 igniters into the motor when you are ready to fly. I used masking tape to keep the igniter heads together and twisted the wires around each other. Then you hook both sets of the leads to the alligator clips. They had only one misfire out of 76 launches. That is pretty impressive.

The livestream of the launch is a great service and is a wonderful way for everyone to experience the flights.

Watch out for the mesquite bushes. If you’re wearing sneakers and step on them, you might as well had been barefoot because they will punch through the shoe and injure you. Hiking boots are mandatory.

They use Wilson launch boxes.

They have heavy duty Coker pads that are mounted on concrete slabs. The 1515 rails are mounted to heavy duty aluminum bases that allow you to set your launch angle (they prefer 4 degrees). The rails are 17 feet long. It’s solid as a rock.

I learned that being a flyer of record comes with some benefits and a lot of challenges. It helps your team when you’re going through the main safety inspection but you may end up being in charge of the team at the launch site when one of your charges has to be taken to the hospital due to illness.

The desert down here is worse than Black Rock or Brothers as to wind gusts from noon to 6 pm. They had steady winds at 22 mph with gusts to 37 mph on Wednesday and Thursday.

A community college team had a great flight to near its target altitude and recovered the rocket with no damage. The other teams cheered for it as spunky underdogs because they had an excellent payload design, a beautiful, fast looking rocket and a killer paint job while “only” being community college students!

It’s a huge launch with a lot of people (1850 students and at least 800 support people, armed guards and Spaceport suits, along with several vendors. Blue Origin is the primary sponsor for the event.

I was there last year as a student, I’m hoping to go back as a flyer of record or as a volunteer for the hybrids now that I’m graduating. Looked crazy windy this year, poor McGill had a freak accident on the launch pad too.

 

[OverTheTop]

GO AUSTRALIA!!!

Monash University from Melbourne, Australia, got runner-up in the modeling & simulation category again this year.

Monash University also took out the Team Sportsmanship Award.

University of Queensland came runner-up in the 10k COTS category.

Australian National University got an honourable mention in the Payload Challenge category.

Best Video was awarded to the University of New South Wales.

Aussies seem to be doing quite well

Congratulations to the teams for a job well done.

Thanks also to the many volunteers that make the event possible.

 

[cwbullet]

Congrats to all. I was there with the Citadel last year. They earned the 10K COTs runner-up. It was a great time.

 

[OverTheTop]

Last year was great to attend, including meeting you Chuck!

I can't sustain yearly, but hope to be back there next year with USYD. Would like to see more of New Mexico too. Great place to visit.

 

[JimJarvis50]

GO AUSTRALIA!!!

Monash University from Melbourne, Australia, got runner-up in the modeling & simulation category again this year.

Monash University also took out the Team Sportsmanship Award.

University of Queensland came runner-up in the 10k COTS category.

Australian National University got an honourable mention in the Payload Challenge category.

Best Video was awarded to the University of New South Wales.

Aussies seem to be doing quite well

Congratulations to the teams for a job well done.

Thanks also to the many volunteers that make the event possible.

Monash University helped me several times with the setup of the two-stage pads. They are so heavy that it takes at least 4 people to move them. Couldn't have done it without them. Great group.

Jim

 

[SolarYellow]

A community college team had a great flight to near its target altitude and recovered the rocket with no damage. The other teams cheered for it as spunky underdogs because they had an excellent payload design, a beautiful, fast looking rocket and a killer paint job while “only” being community college students!

It's not fair they go to school at a place that also has whole courses of instruction for people to learn how to actually work for a living.

 

[mrwalsh85]

The launch team here insists that you install 2 igniters into the motor when you are ready to fly. I used masking tape to keep the igniter heads together and twisted the wires around each other. Then you hook both sets of the leads to the alligator clips. They had only one misfire out of 76 launches. That is pretty impressive.

This is my strategy for the SLI team I mentor. 2 E-matches augmented with slivers of blue thunder. Gets 'er going every time.

The SLI team I mentor is considering participating in Spaceport. Will make for an interesting discussion.

 

[OverTheTop]

Monash University helped me several times with the setup of the two-stage pads. They are so heavy that it takes at least 4 people to move them. Couldn't have done it without them. Great group.

Jim

They would have loved assisting with your project Jim. The comraderie and willingness to assist others I have seen at SAC has been amazing. I know it is very strong between Australian teams attending, but I suspect it is also through the greater cohort of teams.

 

[jsdemar]

The launch team here insists that you install 2 igniters into the motor when you are ready to fly. I used masking tape to keep the igniter heads together and twisted the wires around each other. Then you hook both sets of the leads to the alligator clips. They had only one misfire out of 76 launches. That is pretty impressive.

The livestream of the launch is a great service and is a wonderful way for everyone to experience the flights.

Watch out for the mesquite bushes. If you’re wearing sneakers and step on them, you might as well had been barefoot because they will punch through the shoe and injure you. Hiking boots are mandatory.

They use Wilson launch boxes.

They have heavy duty Coker pads that are mounted on concrete slabs. The 1515 rails are mounted to heavy duty aluminum bases that allow you to set your launch angle (they prefer 4 degrees). The rails are 17 feet long. It’s solid as a rock.

I learned that being a flyer of record comes with some benefits and a lot of challenges. It helps your team when you’re going through the main safety inspection but you may end up being in charge of the team at the launch site when one of your charges has to be taken to the hospital due to illness.

The desert down here is worse than Black Rock or Brothers as to wind gusts from noon to 6 pm. They had steady winds at 22 mph with gusts to 37 mph on Wednesday and Thursday.

A community college team had a great flight to near its target altitude and recovered the rocket with no damage. The other teams cheered for it as spunky underdogs because they had an excellent payload design, a beautiful, fast looking rocket and a killer paint job while “only” being community college students!

It’s a huge launch with a lot of people (1850 students and at least 800 support people, armed guards and Spaceport suits, along with several vendors. Blue Origin is the primary sponsor for the event.

They don’t require dual igniters, only two electrical methods to light the pyrogen. I use two ematches dipped in bkno3-v (aka ProCast). Using two igniters doubles the pyrogen and could cause damage.

I’ve made most of the igniters for the past 5 years for the Spaceport Cup. They are sold onsite by AMW. (I don’t have any control over the price!) There have been no misfires with these. Prior to using these, there were dozens of misfires slowing down the range. This year there were about 10 misfires and many slow startups using alternative igniters, many made on-site by Tim Lehr.

I lose money making the igniters and I will likely skip making them next year. I’ll post the documentation on how I make them.

 

[manixFan]

They don’t require dual igniters, only two electrical methods to light the pyrogen. I use two ematches dipped in bkno3-v (aka ProCast). Using two igniters doubles the pyrogen and could cause damage.

I’ve made most of the igniters for the past 5 years for the Spaceport Cup. They are sold onsite by AMW. (I don’t have any control over the price!) There have been no misfires with these. Prior to using these, there were dozens of misfires slowing down the range. This year there were about 10 misfires and many slow startups using alternative igniters, many made on-site by Tim Lehr.

I lose money making the igniters and I will likely skip making them next year. I’ll post the documentation on how I make them.

Interesting observation. I ran the pads this year for the solids and I'm not sure where you got your information about ignitor usage – there were many types of ignitors. I handled all the misfires and can categorically state that what you describe is not what I experienced.


Tony

Edit: another pad manager also handled a couple of misfires. In all cases (including your igniters), they failed to fire. We had no instances of igniters that fired but failed to start the motor.

 

[rocketace]

This year's IREC competition at Spaceport America was amazing! Yes, it got windy, but it's such a great place to launch. This was my second-year volunteering with ESRA as a safety reviewer and pad manager as well as mentoring one of the universities. Being able to see all of these projects from all over the globe is an unforgettable experience. Overall, the build quality from the teams was much better this year and more successful flights to show for it. The winds before 12pm most days was 5mph or less, so it encouraged teams to get up early.

As OverTheTop mentioned, Australia had a strong showing again and some beautiful rockets.

The only thing that would have made it better is more volunteers!! Help is needed everywhere especially L3 flyers. You can mentor a local or foreign team throughout the year. And/or you can help out the week of the launch reviewing / judging / launching and many more positions.

www.soundingrocket.org

Here are some cool photos from the solids pads.


Thursday morning with 15 loaded and ready


Thursday afternoon with 17 ready.

 

[jsdemar]

Interesting observation. I ran the pads this year for the solids and I'm not sure where you got your information about ignitor usage – there were many types of ignitors. I handled all the misfires and can categorically state that what you describe is not what I experienced.


Tony

Edit: another pad manager also handled a couple of misfires. In all cases (including your igniters), they failed to fire. We had no instances of igniters that fired but failed to start the motor.

Hi Tony,

The misfires and slow starts were from logged observations on the live feed. Pad managers are too far away to see the startups. I also have a list of the teams who purchased my igniters through AMW and correlated those to the motor startup characteristics. All of the slow starts were from other igniters, not the mil-spec BKNO3V igniters I make. Poorly designed igniters can cause a reduction in the initial thrust-to-weight ratio, or damage the propellant's grain at the top. After the teams have spent so much time and money getting to the Spaceport Cup, it seems unwise to skimp on the igniter. As I mentioned above, I don't make money off of this; all of the information on my igniter development and testing is available online for free. I've also made available the hard-to-find ingredients for the past 5 years at cost.

The no-go misfires were due to the Wilson-FX link dropping out due to the wind rotating the directional antennas. (A side note: using alternate antennas which were not tested for FCC certification of the RF subsystem used by Wilson-FX is a violation of FCC regulations).

 

[manixFan]

Hi Tony,

The misfires and slow starts were from logged observations on the live feed. Pad managers are too far away to see the startups. I also have a list of the teams who purchased my igniters through AMW and correlated those to the motor startup characteristics. All of the slow starts were from other igniters, not the mil-spec BKNO3V igniters I make. Poorly designed igniters can cause a reduction in the initial thrust-to-weight ratio, or damage the propellant's grain at the top. After the teams have spent so much time and money getting to the Spaceport Cup, it seems unwise to skimp on the igniter. As I mentioned above, I don't make money off of this; all of the information on my igniter development and testing is available online for free. I've also made available the hard-to-find ingredients for the past 5 years at cost.

The no-go misfires were due to the Wilson-FX link dropping out due to the wind rotating the directional antennas. (A side note: using alternate antennas which were not tested for FCC certification of the RF subsystem used by Wilson-FX is a violation of FCC regulations).

John,

The point I was trying to make is that I don't recall your ignitors as being the majority of the ignitors used for this launch and I was present at the pad area for every salvo that was launched. And all types of ignitors had issues. Some or even most of those certainly could have been caused by the wind/antenna combination – that’s a great observation. But at least one of your ignitors was replaced because we could not get it to fire. I bought the components from you to make the BKNO3V ignitors, so I don't have any issue with that formulation, and I certainly appreciate the vast amount of knowledge you share with the community. I was just trying to keep the record straight from my perspective.

I have nothing to do with the Wilson system, other than to make sure it's connected correctly. If there is an issue with the antennas, that's above my pay grade. But all the points you raised will certainly be discussed. My main goal as pad coordinator is to get all the rockets launched, safely. Anything we can do to make that process more reliable is well worth considering. Your observations are very valuable in that regard.


Tony

(edited for brevity)

 

[WILDMANRS]

They don’t require dual igniters, only two electrical methods to light the pyrogen. I use two ematches dipped in bkno3-v (aka ProCast). Using two igniters doubles the pyrogen and could cause damage.

I’ve made most of the igniters for the past 5 years for the Spaceport Cup. They are sold onsite by AMW. (I don’t have any control over the price!) There have been no misfires with these. Prior to using these, there were dozens of misfires slowing down the range. This year there were about 10 misfires and many slow startups using alternative igniters, many made on-site by Tim Lehr.

I lose money making the igniters and I will likely skip making them next year. I’ll post the documentation on how I make

They don’t require dual igniters, only two electrical methods to light the pyrogen. I use two ematches dipped in bkno3-v (aka ProCast). Using two igniters doubles the pyrogen and could cause damage.

I’ve made most of the igniters for the past 5 years for the Spaceport Cup. They are sold onsite by AMW. (I don’t have any control over the price!) There have been no misfires with these. Prior to using these, there were dozens of misfires slowing down the range. This year there were about 10 misfires and many slow startups using alternative igniters, many made on-site by Tim Lehr.

I lose money making the igniters and I will likely skip making them next year. I’ll post the documentation on how I make them.

Hi John
Thank you for donating your time to make the igniters for amw sell to the teams at $50 a piece .
When I herd how much they were last year .
I decided to offer some at a reasonable price this year $15 a piece.
A couple matches and some Bp pellets work every time .
To make the claim that out of the 20 or so I sold 10 of them didn’t work properly is completely bs .
I know of one team that bought igniters from me that did not work and they used 2 high current ones wired together and I would never recommend that.

 

[jsdemar]

Hi John
Thank you for donating your time to make the igniters for amw sell to the teams at $50 a piece .
When I herd how much they were last year .
I decided to offer some at a reasonable price this year $15 a piece.
A couple matches and some Bp pellets work every time .
To make the claim that out of the 20 or so I sold 10 of them didn’t work properly is completely bs .
I know of one team that bought igniters from me that did not work and they used 2 high current ones wired together and I would never recommend that.

Hi Tim,
I have no control over what AMW sells them for. I am not a vendor, so I won't sell igniters directly to teams. It was good to see you offer a cheap pyrodex option onsite for $15 (at a $10 profit). Unfortunately, I would lose money at $15 for the time and materials used to make a correctly-sized, high-performance igniter.

I never implied that your e-match+pellets were misfires, but it is well known that pyrodex pellets are slower starting igniters. Also, it is easy for a team to oversize the igniter and place it in an improper position. Andy was saying on the live stream that you were telling teams to put "one high and one low".

The students are also misinterpreting the dual igniter rule and assuming they need two independent igniters. I partially blame ESRA for not being clear on the rule. It needs to be redundant electrical circuits while still maintaining the correct size igniter for the motor.

 

[jsdemar]

John,

The point I was trying to make is that I don't recall your ignitors as being the majority of the ignitors used for this launch and I was present at the pad area for every salvo that was launched. And all types of ignitors had issues. Some or even most of those certainly could have been caused by the wind/antenna combination – that’s a great observation. But at least one of your ignitors was replaced because we could not get it to fire. I bought the components from you to make the BKNO3V ignitors, so I don't have any issue with that formulation, and I certainly appreciate the vast amount of knowledge you share with the community. I was just trying to keep the record straight from my perspective.

I have nothing to do with the Wilson system, other than to make sure it's connected correctly. If there is an issue with the antennas, that's above my pay grade. But all the points you raised will certainly be discussed. My main goal as pad coordinator is to get all the rockets launched, safely. Anything we can do to make that process more reliable is well worth considering. Your observations are very valuable in that regard.


Tony

(edited for brevity)

Tony,

I use J-Tek ematches (none from China). I test the resistance of each ematch before assembly, then again when the heads are ready for dipping, and then for a final check when complete. They'll fire every time unless someone modifies them. In the past, we have had teams untwist the ematch leads and reconnect them as an open circuit. Kids do the darndest things! I started putting heat shrink tubing on the correct twisted pairs to try to prevent that.

Once it gets closer to SPAC 2024, I'll revisit whether I'll make these igniters again. For example, it takes 4 hours alone just to mix a 50-gram batch of pyrogen remotely. I make 4 batches each year.

 

[Neutronium95]

I don't know where to bring this up, but from what I heard, they really need to change the range layout for next year.

Having the hybrids pad separate and downrange from the rest of the launch does make sense. Having the hybrids pads in the area where ballistic rockets tend to impact is a major safety risk.

I'm not involved with any SAC group, I just heard several people on hybrid rocket teams complaining about rockets coming in ballistic near their prep area.

 

[FredA]

Having the hybrids pad separate and downrange from the rest of the launch does make sense. Having the hybrids pads in the area where ballistic rockets tend to impact is a major safety risk.

I'm not involved with any SAC group, I just heard several people on hybrid rocket teams complaining about rockets coming in ballistic near their prep area.

Pads downrange of pads launching????
Especially with a tilt sending them that way?
Sounds really dumb - who thought this up and why?
Secondly, why didn't the RSO respond if they were truly being bombed?

 

[WILDMANRS]

Hi Tim,
I have no control over what AMW sells them for. I am not a vendor, so I won't sell igniters directly to teams. It was good to see you offer a cheap pyrodex option onsite for $15 (at a $10 profit). Unfortunately, I would lose money at $15 for the time and materials used to make a correctly-sized, high-performance igniter.

I never implied that your e-match+pellets were misfires, but it is well known that pyrodex pellets are slower starting igniters. Also, it is easy for a team to oversize the igniter and place it in an improper position. Andy was saying on the live stream that you were telling teams to put "one high and one low".

The students are also misinterpreting the dual igniter rule and assuming they need two independent igniters. I partially blame ESRA for not being clear on the rule. It needs to be redundant electrical circuits while still maintaining the correct size igniter for the motor

Hey John
You do have control over what AMW sells them for (Jolly Rancher) and if AMW won't stick to your fair guidelines give me a call and I will .
You sure the hell did imply that and called me out by name.
"This year there were about 10 misfires and many slow startups using alternative igniters, many made on-site by Tim Lehr."
And you are wrong as pointed out by people already here in this thread .One of the failed igniters was one of your $50 ones that some one made a bunch of profit on.
I was making the igniters on site for the teams , how ever they were already mounted on dowel rods sized for the motor they were using so they couldn't oversize or or incorrectly position the igniter .now if they wired them wrong at the pad i did not for see that as a possibility until halfway through the day.
then I started twisting and shunting instead of just shunting them for the students.
If some of the students bought stuff off the internet and tried doing it them selves I do not have control over that .
But I wish you and Andy would give me a little more credit than that . Why the would I say to put one high and one low that's just stupid and obviously wrong and anyone with experience should know better.

I will conclude with you are obviously an internet warrior ,much smarter than me and never wrong, so all of your stuff worked perfectly and everyone else is to blame for what ever failures there were at SA cup this years with motor ignition.

 

[jderimig]

Speaking of ignition, I was told out of the 5 2-stage projects only 1 lit the sustainer. Does anyone have any color on what were the reasons?

 

[jsdemar]

Speaking of ignition, I was told out of the 5 2-stage projects only 1 lit the sustainer. Does anyone have any color on what were the reasons?

I was helping with the 2-stage pads. With the high winds, some were likely due to tilt lockout.

The one that did staged cato’d.

 

[kavy8]

I was helping with the 2-stage pads. With the high winds, some were likely due to tilt lockout.

The one that did staged cato’d.

It was beautiful to at least see the upper stage light! And it was wonderful the camera man tracking the flights was able to track it by the last 2 stage! (Just trying to bring some positivity back into this thread)

 

[jderimig]

I was helping with the 2-stage pads. With the high winds, some were likely due to tilt lockout.

The one that did staged cato’d.

I saw the video of the one that lit and it was pretty straight. Did the others veer (visually)?

 

[kavy8]

Pads downrange of pads launching????
Especially with a tilt sending them that way?
Sounds really dumb - who thought this up and why?
Secondly, why didn't the RSO respond if they were truly being bombed?

I heard that all of the rockets that came in ballistic near the hybrids were from the 2 stage pad. This could be hear say, it was just from some of the students I know who were trying to launch hybrids.

 

[jsdemar]

It was beautiful to at least see the upper stage light! And it was wonderful the camera man tracking the flights was able to track it by the last 2 stage! (Just trying to bring some positivity back into this thread)

Getting to fly the upper stage a as single stage was a nice bonus!

The teams did a lot of work designing, building, and testing their 2-stagers. With temperatures over 100F and winds gusting above 20mph, prepping the rockets was challenging. The calmer windows in the mornings weren't utilized in general by the teams (and in some cases, by the range crew). It's a complex even to run, and it was quite successful this year!

 

[jsdemar]

I saw the video of the one that lit and it was pretty straight. Did the others veer (visually)?

I don't have a good idea for the staging issues for 3 of the 5 2-stagers. One definitely veered at more than 20 degrees from vertical, but it was a last-chance opportunity to launch. It's probably worthwhile getting feedback from the teams after they look at altimeter data and the condition of the igniters.

 

[jderimig]

Were staged rockets a different category or just another (more difficulty points) way for some teams to skin the cat?

 

[jsdemar]

Were staged rockets a different category or just another (more difficulty points) way for some teams to skin the cat?

Same categories, more difficulty points. 10K and 30K COTS motors and 10K and 30K student-made motors. Hybrids are a separate category for 10K and 30K.