Quest E26 and La Pequeña Vulcanita 34 and Ouch !

[kjhambrick]

All --

First of all, many thanks to Bill, Wanda, Jim, Enrique, Bruce and everyone else for the great time at the Oct 21 West Texas Space Vaqueres ( aka WTSV ) "Almost Haloween" Launch at Eggemeyer Field in Wall, TX !

This was "La Pequeña Vulcanita 34" ( aka LVP-34 ) before her maiden flight:



Beautiful stickers by @tsmith1315 -- thanks Tim !

Ugly paint by yours, truly

The Launch Site Altitude, reported by the Blue Raven before launch was 1826 ft ( actual altitude at ( 31.33136901542348, -100.28806800259666 ) is 1926 ft MSL ) but the local Barometric Pressure was high on Saturday.

The Site Temperature at 11:45 was 78 F and the winds were 7-10 mph or so ( note to self: need to find or replace my old anerometer ).

LPV-34 was built with glassed slotted BT-50 BT-55 tubes from Apogee and she has mini-rail buttons and she was launched on a 5-foot 80/20 2020 rail attached to the rail on an original BSR ProPad.

LPV-34's liftoff mass was 326 grams including the Quest E26-7W motor ( Batch 03312023 ) plus adapter and tape weighed 74 grams without any BP in the well.

OR Simed her apogee at about 1,200 feet.

She was set up for dual deployment with a Blue Raven ( dual curled 1-inch ribbon streamer at apogee, 12 inch Top Flite at 700 ft ).

Her Main Chute Charge did not fire so she came in on the streamer.

These are her parts after landing on an asphalt runway access road with a streamer from apogee.



Ouch !

She coned VERY badly, maybe two or three times under thrust, and then straightened out and flew OK while coasting but I lost sight of her before apogee because I focused for a second or so on the corkscrew smoke trail and never found her again in the air.

She landed at ( 31.333344487803583, -100.2857096362551 ), about 1,000 ft away.

When I recovered her, there was no nozzle in the E26 and there were no nozzle remnants on the asphalt but WTSV member Jim said he saw her bounce higher than the cotton plants when she landed so maybe her parts finally came down somewhere different than her initial impact site and I missed the nozzle while gathering her parts.

I didn't bother to weigh the motor + adapter after the flight because of the missing nozzle.

Thanks to Jim for helping me look for her in the cotton patch !

I started a video on my phone before launch but I forgot to sign my flight card and the launch was paused at T-5 while I signed my card ... and then I forgot to get the camera going again ...

Ouch !!

It was odd that her attitude improved after the motor cut off so I am going to fly her fin can again to check my fins after I replace the damaged tubes with the spare glassed BT-50's BT-55's I made when I was building her.
I'll check the ignitor later today after work when the rain is supposed to let up a bit ...

It was also odd that the Blue Raven did not fire the 0.6 gram main ejection charge on a 'good' 1.2 Ohm MJG Firewire Initiator, so I'll ground test that charge later.

The Blue Raven was shut down when I recovered her and then when I powered up back at my prep-table, there were no flight stats and I received an empty file over blue tooth.

I am still analyzing what info I have which isn't much, but I will definitely fly the Blue Raven in LPV-34 next time too so I can see what's what ...

More to come, I hope, I'll definitely be back for more !

-- kjh

EDIT: fixed a little grammar.
EDIT: BT-50 -> BT-55

 

[tsmith1315]

Ouch !!

Well, that stinks! Especially on a maiden voyage, and “more” especially after such a long wait to revive the Vulcanite program at kjh Labs.

Too bad you couldn’t find the nozzle, it really sounds like the culprit.

It also sounds like you may need another vinyl decal, just say when.

(Edited to remove the long PM response posted here by mistake)

 

[manixFan]

Sorry to hear that your flight had some issues. The first order of business before flying again is to figure out why the altimeter was powered off. That’s the most likely reason it did not fire the main – it had lost power, and also why there wasn’t a flight to download. It sounds like the apogee charge fired, so it seems possible that the shock of the ejection charge caused power to drop out. That would explain both why no main charge and the off state of the Raven.

Good luck with the diagnosis – hopefully it’s an easy fix.


Tony

 

[kjhambrick]

Sorry to hear that your flight had some issues. The first order of business before flying again is to figure out why the altimeter was powered off. That’s the most likely reason it did not fire the main – it had lost power, and also why there wasn’t a flight to download. I sounds like the apogee charge fired, so it seems pos that the shock of the ejection charge caused power to drop out. That would explain both why no main charge and the off state of the Raven.

Good luck with the diagnosis – hopefully it’s an easy fix.


Tony

Thanks Tony.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I did a LOT of ground tests and sims yesterday and it never failed to lite the xmas tree lites -- apo and main.

I had the battery taped down to the bottom of the sled so I am wondering if the high-G kick at Apogee was the cause of the failure.

The Blue Raven came right up but maybe there was a momentary power loss ???

I've been looking at AV-Bays and I am thinking I need to secure my battery to the bottom of my sled with more than gobs of electrical tape.

Below is a ground test where I disassembled the unfired charge and it fired as expected.

Thanks again !

-- kjh

This is the ground test with the EJG main match that didn't fire. I've noticed like you that there is a lag between audio and video.

View attachment gnd-main-ejg-1698073867813.mp4

 

[manixFan]

Your comment about the Blue Raven being shut down when you recovered the rocket does certainly seem to indicate that power was interrupted during flight. But it sounds like it powered up without you having to do anything to the battery connection? If so, maybe post a photo or describe how you are connecting power to the Raven and the battery.

FWIW, the mass of the batteries is low enough that electrical tape is plenty strong enough to hold them in place, but depending on how/what it's attached to, it can flex or shift due to the stretchiness of the tape. I've also found that wrapping the battery in regular cellophane tape first makes it a lot easier to remove the black tape – the clear tape can just stay wrapped around the battery.

It's unfortunate it landed on the asphalt and that both tubes were damaged, but at least you have replacements ready to go.


Tony

 

[kjhambrick]

Your comment about the Blue Raven being shut down when you recovered the rocket does certainly seem to indicate that power was interrupted during flight. But it sounds like it powered up without you having to do anything to the battery connection? If so, maybe post a photo or describe how you are connecting power to the Raven and the battery.

FWIW, the mass of the batteries is low enough that electrical tape is plenty strong enough to hold them in place, but depending on how/what it's attached to, it can flex or shift due to the stretchiness of the tape. I've also found that wrapping the battery in regular cellophane tape first makes it a lot easier to remove the black tape – the clear tape can just stay wrapped around the battery.

It's unfortunate it landed on the asphalt and that both tubes were damaged, but at least you have replacements ready to go.


Tony

Thanks again Tony.

Yes, all I did was waive the magic wand over the F.W. Mag switch to restart the Blue Raven back at my prep table.

I am using a Mag Switch and a Simple Circuit along with the Blue Raven on a sled.

I'll get some photos today after work.

This AV-Bay has a version 2 Mag Switch which defaults to off when it is powered on.

It seems iif the Mag Switch loses power then the It won't come back on until manually tripped.

There are lots of electrical connections to check !

Black tape always seems to leave a lot of goo behind so the Scotch Tape idea is a good idea !

It shouldn't take a lot to get her in the air again but the weather is looking iffy the next 10 days or so here in central TX

I am hoping to do my level 2 re-cert attempt at the AARG launch on Nov 4 but I am wondering if I shouldn't order a new Blue Raven for that ...

-- kjh

 

[manixFan]

Thanks again Tony.

Yes, all I did was waive the magic wand over the F.W. Mag switch to restart the Blue Raven back at my prep table.

I am using a Mag Switch and a Simple Circuit along with the Blue Raven on a sled.

I'll get some photos today after work.

This AV-Bay has a version 2 Mag Switch which defaults to off when it is powered on.

It seems iif the Mag Switch loses power then the It won't come back on until manually tripped.

There are lots of electrical connections to check !

Black tape always seems to leave a lot of goo behind so the Scotch Tape idea is a good idea !

It shouldn't take a lot to get her in the air again but the weather is looking iffy the next 10 days or so here in central TX

I am hoping to do my level 2 re-cert attempt at the AARG launch on Nov 4 but I am wondering if I shouldn't order a new Blue Raven for that ...

-- kjh

One thing to check when you are using the Simple Circuit board is to make sure all the header screws are snugged down on all terminals. I've used that board extensively and really like it. But, and this holds true for any expansion board, it's easy to tighten up just a couple of the header screws and then forget to make sure they all are nice and tight. I will also power on the Raven and the apply a little pressure to the terminal block and release to make sure that a hard knock won't cause it to lose power. I recall one time I was working with the Featherweight expansion board with the built-in magnetic switch and could not get it to work. It turned out I did not have one of the power screws on the Raven terminal tight enough to make contact.

It's always something! Good luck on finding the root cause – but it seems unlikely it is the Raven itself.


Tony

 

[kjhambrick]

Hmmm ...

So I need to check all the screw terminals in the Simple Circuit ?

I've never done that -- I'll do so tonite after work -- especially the switch terminals and of course, the power terminals ( I did check those on Saturday though ).

And after testing yesterday, I don't think there is a problem with the Blue Raven either.

Like you, I did find that it seemed to get into an unknown state after a ground test sometimes.

I found if I let it finish downloading the low_rate and high_rate files before trying another ground test it seemed to work better -- at least I couldn't confuse the Android App when I tested one channel all the way thru the download before testing the next channel.

I believe you also mentioned that the audio and video were out of sync in your ground test videos and mine are too ...

Thanks Tony !

-- kjh

 

[manixFan]

Hmmm ...

So I need to check all the screw terminals in the Simple Circuit ?

I've never done that -- I'll do so tonite after work -- especially the switch terminals and of course, the power terminals ( I did check those on Saturday though ).

And after testing yesterday, I don't think there is a problem with the Blue Raven either.

Like you, I did find that it seemed to get into an unknown state after a ground test sometimes.

I found if I let it finish downloading the low_rate and high_rate files before trying another ground test it seemed to work better -- at least I couldn't confuse the Android App when I tested one channel all the way thru the download before testing the next channel.

I believe you also mentioned that the audio and video were out of sync in your ground test videos and mine are too ...

Thanks Tony !

-- kjh

The terminal screws I mean are the ones on the header on the Raven (circled below) that the male pins of the Simple Circuit board plug into:




I found it was easy to miss getting those all nice and tight to make sure they were making good contact. On this particular mount, I don't have a screw by those terminals, so I've found pushing down on the terminal block while the Raven is on is a good test that I have all the screws snugged down.

And I think you might have me mixed up with another Tony (there are lots of them on the forum), as I don't recall posting much about ground tests. But, maybe that's just my memory!


Tony

 

[kjhambrick]

The terminal screws I mean are the ones on the header on the Raven (circled below) that the male pins of the Simple Circuit board plug into:


View attachment 611435

I found it was easy to miss getting those all nice and tight to make sure they were making good contact. On this particular mount, I don't have a screw by those terminals, so I've found pushing down on the terminal block while the Raven is on is a good test that I have all the screws snugged down.

And I think you might have me mixed up with another Tony (there are lots of them on the forum), as I don't recall posting much about ground tests. But, maybe that's just my memory!


Tony

Oops, sorry !

Yes I did mix you up with @Neutronium95 on the His post #44 on the Featherweight Blue Raven Development Thread: Ground tests Thread

I did double check the Blue Raven Terminals before I buttoned up my AV-Bay Coupler.

My setup is identical to yours except that my Gnd wire is on top of the board and I don't have threaded rods thru my coupler.

I also used 2-56 brass screws and soldered my Mag Switch leads to 2-56 brass washers.

No need to post a picture, I guess -- my sled is set up almost exactly the same as yours except that it is not nearly as pretty

What material are your threaded rods ?

Do they interfere with the operation of your Mag switch ?

How do you lock down your LiPo ?

I am going to double-check the connections between the LiPo and the Mag Switch and between the Mag Switch and the Simple Circuit Bat (+) and Bat (-)

But after yesterday's successful Ground Test with the un-fired ignitor I think my Blue Raven is fine.

I'll be doing my Level 2 recert attempt at the next AARG launch in Hutto but that rocket has enough space in the AV-Bay to use the Power Perch as I did on my Level 1 cert so the BT-55 AV-Bay can wait.

What I really want to see is: does that rocket fly straight ?

Did it cone because I messed up my fins ( they look OK ) ?

Or could there have been a clay nozzle malfunction on the Quest E26 ?

I don't need to fly LPV-34 in dual deployment mode to check my fins so I'll try to get that done ASAP ...

Thanks again, Tony !

-- kjh

 

[manixFan]

While coning could be caused by fin alignment or a bad nozzle, in my experience it most often occurs with long, skinny, three fin rockets, typically with longer burn motors. I've flown a bunch of those and coning has been an issue that pops up, especially it seems in overstable rockets.

I've attached a photo of the backside of my altimeter mount below. For this bay, I do use aluminum threaded rods, which is true in cases where the mag switch could be affected by a support rod. The battery slides into a battery box, and then is held in place by a plastic bushing and a screw. The bushing also puts pressure on the cable connection to make sure it does not somehow works it's way off, but I don't do that typically. I almost always use battery boxes, which if not printed as part of the mount, are either glued in place or held down by double-stick tape. I've found that if I do want to just tape the battery to the sled, putting it into a thin box makes it a lot easier to deal with, and I can use a screw to keep it from sliding out. (No worries about tape sticking to the battery.)

Good luck with your next flight – it sounds like you have handle on all the issues.


Tony

backside of Blue Raven mount with magnetic switch:

 

[kjhambrick]

Thanks a TON, Tony !

That is a beautiful AV-Bay ( on both sides ).

I REALLY like your battery box and the retention bushing -- That is a GREAT idea !

I need to fly LPV-34 again with more-or-less the same mass distribution but maybe a different motor to check the flight characteristics of the rocket,

I've got a 25 year-old E30-7T that I was going to fly last Saturday, but with all the Quest E26 commotion, I thought it would be fun to fly the E26-7W instead.

I've got three other Vulcanite-ish Rockets that fly very well but they're all bigger than LPV-34 ( 48mm, 54mm, 73mm diameters and the lengths are scaled proportionally ).

However, the BT-55 Rocket is the first rocket I've built in the last 25-years.

It has Basswood + Glass Fabric diamond airfoil sandwich fins and maybe I screwed up the airfoils or the fin alignment ?

I believe the alignment is OK because I used pre-slotted tubes and the fins all appear to extend purpendicularly from the tube.

But maybe I've got one-or-more asymetrical airfoils ?

I don't think so because the sandwiche layers looked symetrical and each of the fins were similar after sanding them but that is definitely possible.

I'll only know for sure when she flies again

Now all I need is a new Aerotech iLaunch Controller System so I can back off from the Rail when I launch on Elaine's farm

Thanks again, Tony !

-- kjh