Black Powder question

[TimothyG]

It's because of governmentaly-retarded regulations...The guy at Cabela's (In Maryland) was a nice guy that realizes that stupid rules can be gotten around, I originally indicated for model rocket ejection charges, he looked around and said he'd pretend I didn't say that and asked the rhetorical question, what kind of cannon do you have... I had to sign a form to get it and he had to get a manager to get it from a back room...go figure...there were dozens of containers of smokeless powder on the shelves to just grab and buy along with a ton of ammo.

The mistake here is in assuming a counter jokey at a cabela's knows anything bout the regulations on powder past what his supervisor told him to regurgitate.

 

[dhbarr]

It's a 12mm chute cannon, in case anyone wanted to know.

Uses wadded up cloth for an audible and visible salute.

 

[solid_fuel]

It's a 12mm chute cannon

why so small?
I hope that was a typo for 120mm

 

[dhbarr]

why so small?
I hope that was a typo for 120mm

.472 is meant to be obviously harmless, that's the whole point.

 

[Steve Shannon]

why so small?
I hope that was a typo for 120mm

In some states cannons are limited in size to small diameters, such as half of an inch.

 

[blackjack2564]

BP must be kept in a magazine in big box retail chain stores...ATF.

 

[David Schwantz]

I was not asked any questions, did not sign any forms, paid my twenty bucks and was out the door.

 

[RICHARD COLARCO]

From the web site of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives:

"Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). However, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements. [18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]"

Note this says nothing about use in rockets.

Here is the BATFE word on "destructive devices:"

"Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding paragraphs of this definition; (b) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signalling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Director finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes."

 

[Banzai88]

It's because of governmentaly-retarded regulations...The guy at Cabela's (In Maryland) was a nice guy that realizes that stupid rules can be gotten around, I originally indicated for model rocket ejection charges, he looked around and said he'd pretend I didn't say that and asked the rhetorical question, what kind of cannon do you have... I had to sign a form to get it and he had to get a manager to get it from a back room...go figure...there were dozens of containers of smokeless powder on the shelves to just grab and buy along with a ton of ammo.

Certainly not nearly all BPs or Cabelas carry black powder. The form is a corporate thing, and not requrired by federal law. The reason he had to go to the back was because black powder is classified as an explosive for building fire code and has to be stored in a powder magazine. Smokeless powder is a burnable solid and can be put on the shelf.

 

[Ez2cDave]

You can get it most Cabela's or Bass Pro shops...WHEN they ask what it's for (and they will), you are using it for a musket or cannon, don't say ejection charges or EVER mention rockets.

FFFFg is used as primer for Flintlock rifles . . . Do some research online, so you can provide a "Make / Model" and have a working knowledge of the "lingo".

The Lyman Deerstalker, in .50 or.54 caliber, is a good example.

https://www.lymanproducts.com/brands/lyman/muzzle-loaders/deerstalker-rifle.html

Dave F.

 

[blackjack2564]

To all reading this:
Be careful how you go about obtaining Black powder at retail centers.

Don't screw it up for the rest of us by saying/doing something stupid!
My local Bass Pro now asks what you want 4 ffff for. [all others. 3fff-2ff don't seem to be an issue]

2 yrs ago some idiot tried to buy 20lbs of BP. Red flags went up immediately. [my local store had this incident]
When asked, the moron said he was making pipe bombs.

They stalled him till FBI got there. He's now in Git Mo bay.

Bass Pro sent notice to all store to inquire about usage! This is straight from store managers mouth. They don't care & don't want headaches involved with it. Too many other items make them way more money!
A simple " I need it for my frizzen pan" for my flintlock pistol/rifle will solve the issue. If you don't think you can handle questions then:
"I'm buying it as a birthday present, for my cousin who has a "flintlock".
....................................................................................................................................................................
I posted this long time ago, since then I went to Bass pro last week, they no longer carry BP in any form.
You can choose to be stupid and play the " not in any rule book I can find, so sell it to me for my rocket" or be smart and play the politically correct game. It is happening slowly nation wide, don't let it happen near you.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I posted this long time ago, since then I went to Bass pro last week, they no longer carry BP in any form.
You can choose to be stupid and play the " not in any rule book I can find, so sell it to me for my rocket" or be smart and play the politically correct game. It is happening slowly nation wide, don't let it happen near you.

I tried Bass Pro last time I needed BP, didn't carry it any more. Had to go to powderinc.com and buy the 5 lb. minimum, still have 3 lb. left.

 

[midpower_madness]

Here's the link to the use of dual deployment BP charges and an authorized use letter by NRCan ERD.

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/ERD_BP_letter.jpg

 

[dr wogz]

Here's the link to the use of dual deployment BP charges and an authorized use letter by NRCan ERD.

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/ERD_BP_letter.jpg

I was talking to Bruce & David (Two CAR reps here..)

look at point #3: "For CAR members at CAR events.."

it's somewhat debatable whether it's "only for" or "applies to all Canadian rocketeers"

 

[midpower_madness]

The last time I spoke with ERD about this very issue in 2017, the Pacific office stated that under the new regulations - it would be acceptable for all rocketeers in Canada to use dual deployment as it is a matter of public safety when it comes to some "charge-less" rocket motors that specifically require a separate charge to deploy the chute. As stated on ERDs website, BP does not require a license to acquire/ or use as long is it is used in an authorized manner and under 10KG is being stored at anyone time.

I've been using dual deployment on private launches for 5 years. Not one issue with LEA or Fire Department - all agreed that if its in the interest of public safety then your in the clear.

 

[John Taylor]

Where were the little 1.5 g black powder charges available? Was it Aerotech? Cant seem to find them.
Thanks

 

[tim cubbedge]

Where were the little 1.5 g black powder charges available? Was it Aerotech? Cant seem to find them.
Thanks

Yes, AeroTech.

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/Ejection_Charge_12-Pack/p1577809_16501630.aspx

 

[John Taylor]

Yes, AeroTech.

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/Ejection_Charge_12-Pack/p1577809_16501630.aspx

Thanks!