Next Rocket - Level 2, different nosecone?

[danielhv]

Well now that my paper tube rocket went for a swim it gives me a great opportunity to convince my wife that I need a new one. I'd like to go fiberglass on this one, because I like the looks and want something that is more durable and will last a long time. I've been eyeballing the Apogee Level 2, like that it's a pretty complete kit, the E-bay can be removed to run motor eject when using a 38mm adapter, etc. BUT, I also like the fiberglass nosecone with the aluminum tip look... Is this something that's doable? Apogee's site says its a 4" rocket, but I'm kinda assuming that all 4" rockets & nosecones are all created equal... Sure I can throw tape on it or sand it down a bit... just thought I'd see what thoughts some of you had on the idea. Still learning, and the plan is to run an 38mm adapter in the L2 until I'm ready to go for that L2 cert!

Something like this: https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/nosecone/products/fnc4-0-5-1-vk-fw-mt

 

[thzero]

Probably close, the tube is measured in the inside diameter. It'll probably be more of if the wall thickness matches.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Apogee Level-2 kit is awesome

 

[smstachwick]

No thoughts on the nose. I wish I could help but I have no experience with rockets of this size.

I will point out that there are 54mm I motors if you’d like to practice without an adapter, as well as 38mm J and K motors if that appeals to you for any of a hundred reasons.

I’m not super familiar with the design, does going for motor ejection require the adapter? I’ve never heard of a design like that before.

 

[danielhv]

No thoughts on the nose. I wish I could help but I have no experience with rockets of this size.

I will point out that there are 54mm I motors if you’d like to practice without an adapter, as well as 38mm J and K motors if that appeals to you for any of a hundred reasons.

I’m not super familiar with the design, does going for motor ejection require the adapter? I’ve never heard of a design like that before.

No it doesn’t. I’m just still pretty new. 3 launches as of today so not quite ready to dive into dual deploy. That’s the appeal to me is being able to remove the eBay and run single chute until I can grow into DD. Just seems to be a more future proof platform for me to continue learning on.

 

[thzero]

No it doesn’t. I’m just still pretty new. 3 launches as of today so not quite ready to dive into dual deploy. That’s the appeal to me is being able to remove the eBay and run single chute until I can grow into DD. Just seems to be a more future proof platform for me to continue learning on.

Can't say enough about JollyLogic Chute Release as a mid-point. Now granted, I run dual deployment on anything from an F-52 to Js (well, I'm only Level 2, so...) but there is still something about being able to launch a bit more simply (like my Micro Magg for that) but not yet walk as far!

 

[tsmith1315]

Apogee's site says its a 4" rocket, but I'm kinda assuming that all 4" rockets & nosecones are all created equal

If there's one thing I've learned in the last 30 years, it's to never make that assumption.

Measure twice, order once. Or something like that.

 

[cls]

Rockets don't last forever. Order a bunch of airframe tubes and couplers and nose cones and motor mount rings, and recycle the usable parts from your crashed models.

At modest L2 levels, you won't see any difference in performance between a 3:1 ogive and a 4th order cosecant von karmen whatever ... But damn is that long one good looking!

Make yourself happy!

Remind the wife that her hair job costs a K motor these days.

 

[dmaaero]

Looks like the Apogee kit, an the WM nose cones are both filimate wound. Before you start sanding read this thread. I have the 3" WM version for my Bolt Missile from Mac Performance. I just cleaned, primed, an then lightly sanded so not to go thru the primer before painting.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/sanding-painting-filament-wound-fiberglass-nosecone.171313/

 

[David Schwantz]

Have not built this kit, just read about it. Looks nice. Should fit the bill for you. But it does say all fiberglass parts are made in China, so I would guess not the same size as Wildmans stuff. But I may be wrong. It also states that the NC tip is not aluminum, which is fine. There are many composite tips in use. I did not see anyone mention that there is thin wall fiberglass and thick wall. Again a guess, but I would think this is thin wall. Not that it makes a big difference, but thick wall is heavier. All fiberglass parts need a soapy, hot water bath before working on them. This removes release agents. I'll sand with 220 before priming, clean again with windex or a degreaser, I do that on everything. not just glass. then spray the primer and go from there. Aeropack makes great motor retainers and adapters. If you fly her with motor eject you still need the coupler in place, just remove the bulkheads and the sled. You will also need to change the shock cord attachment with motor eject. Good luck and report on the kit when you get it. We all like to hear about how it is made.

 

[Neutronium95]

From what I understand, the Level 2 kit was made for Apogee by Madcow. And while Curtis used to make all of the fiberglass kits for Madcow, they're now made by Wildman. It migjt be worth contacting Apogee and seeing if that description is still accurate, since if Wildman is making the kit it'll come with the nosecone you want already. Disregard this.

I'd also suggest you run some simulations of the L2 kit before you decide on it. 4" fiberglass tubes are pretty heavy, and a decent amount of 38mm L1 motors may leave it underpowered. Something like a Punisher 3 would fly on a much wider range of motors at the low end, but can still take a 54mm L on the high end, assuming your waiver supports it.

 

[Handeman]

What kind of waiver do you have on your home field? That may weigh heavy on which kit you pick. Any kit that flies well on all H & I motors is going to get some altitude, +5000 usually on small J and more than double that on K motors.
As others have said, fiberglass is heavy. I have a 3" fiberglass with DD that weighs just under 7 lbs w/o motor. It's under powered on anything but a full H or larger motor. It flies up to 3000 ft on I motors and pushes 5,000 on mid-J. A large K will push it over 11,000 and an L to about 3 miles.
A 4" fiberglass kit will be even heavier, even w/o the av-bay.

Think it through. What are reasonable altitudes at your field? What low altitude you want on a windy day, what peak altitude on a calm day? Do you want to fly the new kit on all L1 motors, or just large I and L2? Will you need DD and a tracker?
I've found most folks just coming up to L1 from MPR don't really understand the power differences as the levels go up. They know what the difference between a D and G motor is. They tend to think a H motor is going to be like moving up from an F to a G. It's not. The power range of H motors from baby to full is larger than the D to G range! Add I motors to that and it's about 4x that D to G range which most folks really don't understand until they fly those size motors. Going from G to H to J is nothing like going from D to E to G.

There are so many variables involved for each flier, other than the rocket itself, that recommending a rocket is really just a shot in the dark.

My recommendation would be, don't worry about L2 now unless your goal is to help out with RSO/LCO at your club. Build a 38mm MMT L1 rocket with DD that will fly at acceptable altitudes at your home field on the full range of H & I motors. Do the sims. When you gain some experience with the power differences between baby H and full I motors, you will start to get an idea of the power range involved in L2 motors and make your choice of L2 rocket easier. A baby J motor puts my 3" 5 ft. 7 lbs. rocket about 3500 ft. A large L motor puts my 6" 12 ft. 45 lbs. rocket about 5000 ft.

Good Luck.

 

[smstachwick]

I've found most folks just coming up to L1 from MPR don't really understand the power differences as the levels go up. They know what the difference between a D and G motor is. They tend to think a H motor is going to be like moving up from an F to a G. It's not. The power range of H motors from baby to full is larger than the D to G range! Add I motors to that and it's about 4x that D to G range which most folks really don't understand until they fly those size motors. Going from G to H to J is nothing like going from D to E to G.

This was me about a year and a half ago. I wanted a rocket that could test-fly on 38mm Gs as well as certify L1/L2. I also wanted an extremely large range of motor selection, from long-burners to vanishing act insta-burns to long-casing hybrids. You can look for the thread if you want proof.

After realizing how tall an order this was, I scaled down my ambition to a 29mm G/L1 rocket (test-flown, yet to certify) and a separate 38mm L2 certification project (chosen, yet to start).

My goal isn’t to fly a bunch of big HPR flights, I’d just like to be of more assistance at crowded club launches and maybe try out a few Fs and Gs that would be off-limits otherwise. You might see me asking for a second opinion if/when I check off HPR flights but I can inspect an Estes kit no problem.

 

[bad_idea]

What kind of waiver do you have on your home field?

DARS has a soft ceiling of 4k at Gunter; while the waiver is significantly higher, they want flyers to talk to them in advance if flying over 4k, and what they'll allow on any given day is dependent on the direction and strength of the wind.

 

[WILDMANRS]

From what I understand, the Level 2 kit was made for Apogee by Madcow. And while Curtis used to make all of the fiberglass kits for Madcow, they're now made by Wildman. It migjt be worth contacting Apogee and seeing if that description is still accurate, since if Wildman is making the kit it'll come with the nosecone you want already.

I'd also suggest you run some simulations of the L2 kit before you decide on it. 4" fiberglass tubes are pretty heavy, and a decent amount of 38mm L1 motors may leave it underpowered. Something like a Punisher 3 would fly on a much wider range of motors at the low end, but can still take a 54mm L on the high end, assuming your waiver supports it.

We are not making that kit for Apogee

 

[danielhv]

My primary intent is to find a rocket that will last as I gain experience. My Zephyr was nice, got me my L1. Had a hard landing and ended up with a buckle in the body tube, and that's when I felt fiberglass would have been much better BECAUSE I spent so much time tying to make my rocket look nice, and once it takes damage, it's dang near impossible to refurb it back to what it was with a paper tube. The decals were shot, and sure I could have sanded for days trying to balance getting the paint off but not going too deep... but in my mind it wasn't worth the trouble. Atleast with a glass tube you have a lot more resilience to repairs, sanding, chemical stripping, etc. My last flight I sent the Zephyr up on an I500, hit 2770ft with it, and then splash, landed in the pond. Now the front 10" of the body tube is all swollen, and the motor mount tube looks like it's all buggered up from me trying to get the motor casing out of the soaked tube.

I suppose the smart thing would be to get a cheap(er) smaller rocket and continue learning, and add on to it as time goes. With so many options out there it's difficult to commit to a certain direction... Sleek and skinny, short and fat, and everything in between. :/

 

[Handeman]

What's the waiver where you are flying? What's the practical altitude limit?
A 4 lbs. 2.5" dia. with 38mm MMT will usually get you 1500 to +5000 ft. If you go to 3" dia., 7 lbs. and 54mm MMT, you can fly 1500 to about 15,000.
There is nothing wrong with a large diameter, heavy rocket if you want to fly big motors and still stay under a lower waiver and smaller field size at your home field.