L1 Jr. Cert Kit Questions

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Johnhg7

Johnhg7

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Hi all,

I'm new here but I've been doing rockets for years now. I participated in TARC this year and that got me into higher power rocketry.

So I have decided that I want to go for my L1 Jr (NAR) (I turn 18 in November, so I hope it won't be Jr. for long.)

The two kits I've been looking at are the LOC Forte and the IV. Does anyone have a prefrence? I kinda like the 4 inch diameter of the IV, I don't mind low and slow. :D

Also should I go with kevlar cord instead of the elastic standard? I live 15 mins from Balsa Machining, so our school club gets a lot of stuff from there.

Also what about an electronics bay? I have access to an altimeter through school and there was talk about getting a GPS tracker with leftover funds. I am a ham so I have experience in direction finding and antenna building.

Thanks in advance!

Jack
 
If you really want a L1 rocket, I would recommend something a little heavier. Both of those are in the MPR range for weight and the recommended motors are F, G, & H. They would get a lot of altitude on an I motor. I would recommend something that starts in the 60 oz. area, up to about 120 oz. That will put you in the low and slow with H motors but would allow 3,000 - 4,000 ft flights on I motors. More L1 range then MPR.
 
Johnhg7 said:
Hi all,

I'm new here but I've been doing rockets for years now. I participated in TARC this year and that got me into higher power rocketry.

So I have decided that I want to go for my L1 Jr (NAR) (I turn 18 in November, so I hope it won't be Jr. for long.)

The two kits I've been looking at are the LOC Forte and the IV. Does anyone have a prefrence? I kinda like the 4 inch diameter of the IV, I don't mind low and slow. :D

Also should I go with kevlar cord instead of the elastic standard? I live 15 mins from Balsa Machining, so our school club gets a lot of stuff from there.

Also what about an electronics bay? I have access to an altimeter through school and there was talk about getting a GPS tracker with leftover funds. I am a ham so I have experience in direction finding and antenna building.

Thanks in advance!

Jack
Click to expand...

If you like the low and slow option the LOC IV is an excellent option. 4" rockets seem to like H motors and LOC rockets are just plain sweet. Going with the ebay to me is totally optional. If you want the option of tracking and accurately record altitude then throw it in there. Makes for a good spot to throw that kind of stuff.

What it boils down to, is how are you going to fly it? What would be the most satisfying way to fly it? Figure that out and build accordingly.
 
I am working on my Jr. Lvl 1 as well. I originally bought a LOC Fantom. I decided that it was a little light for H or I motors, so I also bought a payload bay and a third ring to sammich the fin tabs. With the payload bay, it comes in at roughly 40 ounces before paint. That puts it at about 1200' for a baby H motor.
 
Thank you all!

So I think I'm going to go with a LOC IV with a payload bay and rail buttons instead of the launch lugs. According to OpenRocket that should put it near 40 oz. While that still might be a little light for a H to be low-and-slow, you have to live little right? :cyclops:

After some more reading I figured that I should probably tie the recovery system into the motor mount with an i bolt.

Do you think I should use the elastic cord that its supplied with or go with kevlar? My concern about kevlar is that it might zipper the tube.
 
I would go with some form of tubular webbing but that is just me. I use regular 1" climbing webbing on most of my kits and if needed protect the bottom foot or two with Nomex or PBI. Using Kevlar would also work fine. I am just not a fan of elastic.

If you haven't already set yourself on the LOC kit for sure, I would recommend that you take a look at Wildman's Darkstar Jr or Wildman Jr. There is a ton of flexibility in those kits.
 
i would go with the upgrade personaly. on either kit. i fly H and I's in several of the loc 3 inch kits with great flights every time.
 
Id scratch build. It's more rewarding, (sometimes) cheaper you feel more accomplished.

Good luck

Alex
 
I will be buying a kevlar cord for my cert. rocket. It will be kevlar, but as you said, it can zipper the tube. My solution was to add a 1" wide shock cord protector to distribute the forces of the cord.
 
Another way of combating a zipper is to epoxy a hose clamp to the top of the tube. Take off the screw part so all you're left with is an aluminum strip, epoxy that to the tube.

Alex
 
Vote for Loc IV, and I would go with long 1/2 inch tubular kevlar (15 feet) and attach that kevlar to the motor mount behind the centering ring instead of to the inside of the airframe. Not that the old LOC method doesnt normally work fine, just that you should go with a more modern method at this point.

I would not worry about altitude, a solidly built Loc IV (with plenty of epoxy internally to beef up the fins) will take an H or I fine without getting too high. It is a hefty rocket!
 
"If a kit 4 " like the Aerotech G-Force on discount have seen them below $70 at Wildman.

Grab a $4 LOC 29mm mmt with and you can make a longer motor mount to accommodate up to an I200 . With 29mm can do a estes retainer also . Still like Aeropack much better but know the better you do on rocket , more for motor.

Still like the GForce with a 38mm mmt also , but you would have to buy or make some CRs to integrate.

What motor hardware are you going to utilize ? Maybe shop that first and what ever you pick up build the mmt around that - will also help you center what reload.

Wildman also has a $99 special witth 29mm cti starter set with a 2.1 " fiberglass rocket, not as dramatic as a 4" , but once you are certed you will have your choice of vendors motors & projects.

Kenny
 
+1 vote for the LOC IV. I wouldn't call it a "low n slow" on an H motor, though. It is a fairly light rocket, I would fiberglass the air frame if I could do it again. Its very similar in size and weight to the Aerotech G-Force rocket (one of my favorites).

I normally fly my LOC IV on 38/120 "G" motors. I also use a 38/29mm adapter and stick in a 29/40-120 motor with a G64-4W load. It looks like it makes it a bit over 1,000ft, I'll have to attach my Jollylogic altimeter 1 and see what it says. My local field is pretty small so I try it keep rockets from going much higher than that.

I also ditched the cheesy shock cord mount and picked up an eyebolt and mounted it to the centering ring.

I also ditched the launch lug and used 1010 rail buttons. Drill a small hole, install the keeper from behind, and screw the button in from the front. I then added a dab of JB Weld to the back of the button tab. Its never going anywhere.

Use quicklinks for mounting shock cords to their mounts, makes it easier to remove if you want to add an avionics bay later.

Another option you might want to consider is the Binder Designs Excel dual deploy kit with a 54mm motor mount. Its a great looking 4" rocket. You can use a 54/38mm motor adapter to fly smaller motors, and fly it without the altimeter bay when you aren't going too high. But when you want to go for your L2 (and I assure you, you WILL want to soon) you can let it rip with a 54mm motor and dual deploy. All in one well built kit.
 
neond7 said:
I also ditched the launch lug and used 1010 rail buttons. Drill a small hole, install the keeper from behind, and screw the button in from the front. I then added a dab of JB Weld to the back of the button tab. Its never going anywhere.

QUOTE]

I wouldnt JB weld the buttons as they do wear out over time and need to be replaced...i change mine about every 10-12 flights. also leave them a touch loose so that they spin as to reduce wear..
Click to expand...
 
I would go with some form of tubular webbing but that is just me. I use regular 1" climbing webbing on most of my kits and if needed protect the bottom foot or two with Nomex or PBI. Using Kevlar would also work fine. I am just not a fan of elastic.

If you haven't already set yourself on the LOC kit for sure, I would recommend that you take a look at Wildman's Darkstar Jr or Wildman Jr. There is a ton of flexibility in those kits.
Click to expand...

I don't really like elastic either, I had it burn through once one me and I ended up cleaning egg out of a TARC rocket...

Thanks for the idea! I looked online and its 30cents a foot at REI, so I'll be sure to get some.

Well I did take a look at Wildman kits and I ended up going with the LOC IV mainly because of the larger diameter and the price.

Another way of combating a zipper is to epoxy a hose clamp to the top of the tube. Take off the screw part so all you're left with is an aluminum strip, epoxy that to the tube.
Click to expand...

Do you modify the attachment point of your nose cone then? I think by sanding it down it runs the risk of taking too much off the angled slot thingy.

Vote for Loc IV, and I would go with long 1/2 inch tubular kevlar (15 feet) and attach that kevlar to the motor mount behind the centering ring instead of to the inside of the airframe. Not that the old LOC method doesnt normally work fine, just that you should go with a more modern method at this point.
Click to expand...

I'm defiantly going to attach it to the motor mount, but I've seen it both with eye bolts and u bolts. Not sure which one is better but I would think the u bolts are a bit stronger.

What motor hardware are you going to utilize ? Maybe shop that first and what ever you pick up build the mmt around that - will also help you center what reload.
Click to expand...

Wildman has a deal for certs where you get a Cesaroni case free with a cert reload. So I'm leaning towards that now because i could get an entire H or I system for around $30.

Another option you might want to consider is the Binder Designs Excel dual deploy kit with a 54mm motor mount. Its a great looking 4" rocket. You can use a 54/38mm motor adapter to fly smaller motors, and fly it without the altimeter bay when you aren't going too high. But when you want to go for your L2 (and I assure you, you WILL want to soon) you can let it rip with a 54mm motor and dual deploy. All in one well built kit.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. That is an interesting idea. I plan on using it mostly for H, I, and maybe a baby J, which comes in a 5 grain 38 case. But I really like the idea of building up.

I wouldnt JB weld the buttons as they do wear out over time and need to be replaced...i change mine about every 10-12 flights. also leave them a touch loose so that they spin as to reduce wear..
Click to expand...

How do you prevent snagging then? All the solutions I know are pretty permanent.

Thank you all so very much! :cheers:
 
Johnhg7 said:
How do you prevent snagging then? All the solutions I know are pretty permanent.

Thank you all so very much! :cheers:
Click to expand...

Snagging is not much of a problem when you install the buttons into or near the centering rings for the motor mount. i install mine with one on the aft centering ring and the other as close to the CP as i can get.
 
Ok so I think I'm going to put one button into a reinforced centering ring and for the other one I am thinking of putting a small sanded piece of wood into the body tube around the cp and screwing it into that.

Jeff M mentioned fiberglassing the airframe. I don't have a ton of experience with fiberglass but I think it would be worth a try. Would you glass the body tube first and then cut out the fin slots or would you build the whole thing and then glass???

Thanks!
 
i personally would not fiberglass the kit. Loc tubes are plenty strong for what your going to be doing and even thru L3 motors. Fiberglass will just add weight and limit the smaller motor choices.
 
Johnhg7 said:
Jeff M mentioned fiberglassing the airframe. I don't have a ton of experience with fiberglass but I think it would be worth a try. Would you glass the body tube first and then cut out the fin slots or would you build the whole thing and then glass???

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I fiberglassed mine and then cut out the fiberglass covering the fin slots. Use a dremmel and it will only take about 10 minutes.

It will add weight, between the fiberglass and epoxy it added about 20 ounces to each of the 30" body tubes (7.5" diameter) LOC Bruiser kit. Easy fix, just use a bigger motor. :D After paying $215 for a rocket kit, I want it to last a long time so I'm overbuilding the heck out of it. Plus I learned alot doing it, as it was my first time using fiberglass.
 
On my Fantom, I did not fiberglass anything. The tubes are plenty strong for their purpose, and I am not worried about zippers. As for the buttons, I just tacked mine down with ca. They can be removed, but are strong enough that they won't just "pop" off.
 
I also vote for the LOC-IV. It was my first HP build, although I ended up using a Minie Magg for my cert. Performance Hobbies has the IV for $67. That's where I bought mine. I also got an 11" payload section for it for a "stretch" version. I went with a 1/4" eyebolt for the recovery attachment, and use a 2ft section of tubular Kevlar. I have tubular nylon attached to the Kevlar. I installed tee nuts in the aft centering ring and use homemade clips for retention. It's a great flying rocket. Rugged and easy to build.

LOC-IV.jpg

LOC-IV_stretch.jpg

LOC-IV_build5.jpg

IMGP8722.JPG

LOC-IV_skidmark2.jpg
 
I vote the LOC IV as well. It's a great size kit. I am currently building a cluster version called the Heavy Duty Beauty. As others have said, ditch the undie strap and go with either tube nylon or kevlar. No need to glass it, that's a bit of an overkill.

You mentioned snagging on the rail buttons, are you talking about the harness snagging on the rail button bolt on the inside of the rocket? If so, not a problem. Both button will be below the top centering ring and therefor out of harms way.

As far as electronics go, I plan on adding a tracker and an altimeter but not in a traditional ebay. The inside diameter of the 4" tube is plenty for a chute and an internal bay. I haven't added that bit yet but the plan is to take a 8" section of 2" tube and cut it in half length wise then glue it to the inside of the body tube. Then I plan on putting the tracking transmitter and the altimeter on a tray that will slide into the tube and screw in place with a capped section that will seal off the bay from the ejection charge. I plan on adding a non gps equipped tracker to mess around with 70cm DFing. (I am a HAM as well).

What ever you do, best of luck and post pics!
 
MasonH said:
On my Fantom, I did not fiberglass anything. The tubes are plenty strong for their purpose, and I am not worried about zippers. As for the buttons, I just tacked mine down with ca. They can be removed, but are strong enough that they won't just "pop" off.
Click to expand...
Any 4" 4FNC rocket is fine for a L1 cert flight. It does not need to be glassed.

93495al.png


I would suggest that you use well nuts to attach the rail buttons. The are easily removable but the attachment is much stronger than CA.

Bob
 

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